塔尔（2022）

但是该乐队运营了一年便告终止
1938年7月, 布里科成为首个指挥纽约爱乐的女性
她的语录:
我不自认为是一名女性指挥家……而是一名恰好是女性的指挥家
（I do not call myself a woman conductor… I
call myself a conductor who happens to be a woman）
她是一位绝佳的指挥
who by all accounts was an incredible conductor
但被归类为没有魅力那一档次
but was ghettoized into the non-glamorous status
那就是“客席指挥”
of a “guest conductor”
结果就被当猴戏看
and essentially treated as a dog act.
猴 额 她一直没有机会
A dog…Uh, she never got the chance
真正领导一个乐团吗
to lead a major orchestra?
有的 她指挥过
Well, yes.Yes, she did, uh, conduct
柏林爱乐乐团和纽约大都会乐团
the, uh, Berlin Philharmonic, as well as the Met,
但是只是作为客席指挥
but, again, only as a guest conductor.
其实在当时
You know, at, I mean, at that time it was…
一切都戴着性别有色眼镜
it was all gender spectacle.
但幸运的是 时代变了
But fortunately, times change,
这种地位互换是
and-and the Pauline conversion is…
互换 – 如果这个过程还没完成
“Pauline…”-… if not complete,
那就是正在进行中
then it’s-it’s evolving nicely.
如果没有中途夭折的话
N-No less, um,having fallen off its horse.
唔 莉蒂亚 我们能不能聊聊转译
Um, Lydia, could we talk a little bit about, uh, translation?
因为我相信始终有些人
‘Cause I think there’s still people
还以为指挥家只是打打拍子
who think of the conductor as a kind of human metronome.
其实也有一定道理
Well, yeah,that’s-that’s partly true.
好的 但 – 对 但掌控时间
Yeah, but it’s…-But keeping time,
不是一件简单的小事
it’s-it’s no small thing.
但我认为远不止这么简单
But I suspect there’s a lot more to it than that.
是的 我也是这么希望的
Yeah, well,I-I would hope so, yes.
但掌控时间是最重要的
But time is the thing.
TransCaTÁR
时间是这种转译中最本质的东西
Time is-is the essential piece of, uh, interpretation.
离了我 你们没法开始
You cannot start without me.
看到了吗 是我让时钟转动
See, I start the clock.
现在 我的左手做出手势 但我的右手
Now, my left hand shapes, but my right hand,
第二手 标记着时间并使其前进
the second hand, marks time and moves it forward.
但与时钟不同的是 有时候我的第二手停止了
However, unlike a clock, sometimes my second hand stops,
意味着时间停止了
which means that time stops.
这时 有种假象是 就像对你们
Now, the illusion is that, like you,
我是对着乐团作出即时反应
I’m responding to the orchestra in real time…
是的 是的 – 以此决定在哪个时刻
Right, right. -… making the decision about the right moment
来使一切再次开始 或者重新出发
to restart the thing,or reset it,
又或是全情忘记了时间
or throw time out the window altogether.
但事实是 在一切开始之前
The reality is that right from the very beginning,
我就精确地知道那个时刻在哪里
I know precisely what time it is…
真的吗 这 – 而且我还知道在什么时候
Really? That’s…-… and the exact moment
我和你会同时在终点汇合
that you and I will arrive at our destination together.
对我来说 真正的发现
You know, the only real,uh, discovery for me
发生在彩排中
is in rehearsal.
从来就不是在表演当中
It’s never, never in performance.
我知道这个问题有点难 但如果要你说一件
Hard question, I know, but if you could define one thing
伯恩斯坦教给你的东西 那会是什么呢
that Bernstein gave you, what would it be?
Kavvanah
是的 这是希伯来语的一个单词
Yeah, it’s-it’s the Hebrew word
意思是专注或意图
for attention to meaning or-or intent.
就是作曲家的意图是什么
You know, what are the composer’s priorities,
听众的意图是什么 它们又如何互为补充
and what are yours, and how do they complement one another?
好的 kavvanah 我想这个词
Right, kavvanah. I think that’s a word that will have
Kavvana：希伯来语, 犹太教中的一个神学概念, 字面意思是“意图”或“真诚的感觉, 心灵的方向”
它的意味与我们观众中的许多人想的有些不一样
a slightly different meaning for many in our audience.
是的是的 我想是这样
Well, yes, yes, I imagine so.
不知道我想的是否正确
Am I right in thinking that a conductor
指挥并不是伴随古典音乐的出现而出现在舞台上, 对吗
was not always, uh, an on stage presence n classical music?
没错
No, that’s right.
我记得我读到过
I-I think I read some place that it actually was
在很长一段时间里是小提琴首席负责的
the first violin, for a longtime, who was responsible.
是的 是首席小提琴手 不管他们是否有兴趣
Yes, the first violinist, whether they had any interest
或是有能力来指挥
or-or skill in it or not.
那是什么时候改变了这种现象 是谁改的呢
Wh-When did that change, and-and who changed it?
是通过过作曲家 让-巴蒂斯特·吕利
With the French composer,Jean-Baptiste Lully,
Jean-Baptiste Lully：让-巴蒂斯特·吕利, 意大利出生的法国巴洛克作曲家, 路易十四的宫廷乐正
据说他用一个
who reportedly, uh, used a, uh, rather enormous,
巨大的锐利的东西来在地上敲出节拍
rather pointy staff to pound the tempi into the floor.
这个举动 我想乐手们应该不会很欣赏
It’s not something I imagine the players particularly, uh, appreciated.
不管怎么说 这项技法在一次演出过程中戛然而止
Uh, anyway, uh, that technique ended during a performance
因为吕利不小心插中了自己的脚 最后死了
when Lully accidentally stabbed himself in the foot with the thing and died.
就是这样的 因为伤口溃烂了
Yeah, of-of-of gangrene.
不管话说回来
But anyway…
真的
Yeah.
话说回来 其实指挥家
Anyway, but the conductor
真正变成必要的人物是因为乐团配置规模变大了
really becomes essential as the ensembles get bigger.
还有就是 又一次地 我们要提到贝多芬
And once again, we go back to Beethoven.
（第五号♥交响曲《命运》）
♪ Buh, buh, buh, bum, buh, buh, buh, bum. ♪
因为那不是从那个八分音符开始的
Now, that doesn’t start with the eighth note.
这个强拍
The downbeat–♪ Buh, buh, buh — ♪
它是无声的 对吗
it’s silent, right?
所以要有人来启动时钟
So someone had to start that clock.
要有人来把旗子插到沙堆里
Someone had to, uh, plant their flag in the sand
并说 ‘跟我来’
and say, “Follow me,” you know?
当那个人是伯恩斯坦的时候
And when that someone was Lenny, the orchestra was led
乐团会被带领着进行一趟最美好的旅程
on the most extraordinary tour of pleasures.
因为他了解音乐 尤其是马♥勒♥
‘Cause he knew the music,Mahler especially,
比任何人都更深
as well or better than anyone.
他时常玩弄着形式
And he would often play with the form.
因为他希望乐团去感受闻所未闻, 见所未见
‘Cause he wanted an orchestra to feel that they had never seen, let alone heard
更没有演奏过的音乐
or-or performed any of that music.
所以他会做一些激进的事
So he-he would do radical things,
比如说无视音乐原速
like, uh, disregarding the tempo primo
tempo primo：音乐术语, 还原速度
或者以忽慢结束一个乐句
or-or ending this phrase molto ritardando,
molto ritardand：音乐术语, 渐慢很多
尽管乐谱上完全没有这样的标记符号♥
even though it had no such marking.
那会是做得太过了吗
Was he over-egging it?
噢不不不 完全不会
Oh, no, no, no. Not at all.
他是在庆祝发现的喜悦
He, he, he celebrated the joy of his discovery.
你刚刚说
You just told us a moment ago
你的发现是发生在彩排途中的
that your discovery takes place in rehearsal.
这个过程什么时候会再发生呢
When will that process begin again for you?
我们周一开始排练
We start on Monday.
马上就开始吗 – 嗯
Immediately?-Mm.
指挥这部作品
With this one,it really is about
是真的要从蛛丝马迹中研究马♥勒♥的意图了
trying to read the tea leaves of-of Mahler’s intention.
我的意思是 我们知道以从
I mean, we know a great deal about this
很多关于他其它交响曲的事
with his other symphonies.
他很受吕克特的诗启发
You know, he was so inspired by the poetry of Rückert
Rückert：弗里卓克·呂克特, 德国诗人
有很多年他都没有设立过别的音乐主题
that for years he didn’t set another author to music.
但以来的马五 一切都变了
But all of this changes with the Five.
马五是个谜团
The Five is a mystery.
他留给我们唯一的线索
And the only clue he leaves us
就在原稿封面上
is on the cover of the manuscript itself.
Alma：阿尔玛马♥勒♥, 奥地利作曲家、作家、编辑、社会名流，古斯塔夫马♥勒♥的伴侣, 曾也是指挥家
是的 写着献给他的新婚妻子阿尔玛
Yes, the-the dedication to his new wife, Alma.
所以如果你要通过
So if you’re gonna partner with Mahler
第五交响曲来走近马♥勒♥
on his, uh, fifth symphony,
你第一件要做的事
the first thing you must do
就是理解那段复杂的婚姻
is try to understand that very complex marriage.
那你会说你对那段婚姻的理解
And would you say that you havea different interpretation
会与伯恩斯坦的不一样吗
of that marriage than Bernstein did?
你提到了我在亚马逊丛林做的民族志学田野调查
You mentioned my ethnographic fieldwork in the Amazon.
ethnographic：民族志学是人类学和社会学的分支
一种写作文本和田野调查作业方式.
注重于社群研究, 记录社群文化的文字或影响
亚当 西匹波·柯尼波族人
Well, Adam, the Shipibo-Konibo
只有歌♥手在场的时候
only receive an icaro, or song,
才能听到一首icaro 歌♥曲 是吗
if the singer is there, right?
与创作者的意志相重合
On the same side of the-the spirit that-that created it.
这样 过去与现在完美重合