of the Aryan perfect body.
我认为，这有点像优生学。
There’s a bit of eugenics,
I think, about this.
你知道，”如果我们从正确的种群中繁殖、
You know, “If we breed
from the right stock,
“意大利人都会长到20英尺高”。
“Italians will all grow
to be 20ft tall.”
这个环境令人难以置信、
The setting is incredible,
但我无法阻止那一丝丝的悲伤
but I can’t stop
that little bit of sadness
真正思考这到底代表了什么？
to really think
what this really represents –
这个妄想的时刻、
this delusional moment,
这一刻，意大利对自己的思考
this moment that Italy
thought about themselves
真正的东西，我们是没有的。
really something that we are not.
在欧洲还有比……更多的地方吗？
Is there anywhere else
in Europe than…?
类似的东西在以前的政♥权♥中就有。
Something like that was there
from a previous regime
会被，比如，被吹走，被打垮。那是非常罗马的。
would have been, like, blown away
and broken down. That’s very Rome.
你知道，如果你想找到所创作的雕塑作品
You know, if you want to find
the sculptures created
要投射希♥特♥勒♥对德国的想法，你必须去储藏室。
to project Hitler’s idea of Germany,
you have to go to the storeroom
位于柏林的德国历史博物馆的。
of the German Museum of History
in Berlin.
如果你想看到斯大林的伟大形象，那么
If you want to see
Stalin’s great images of
他所设想的苏维埃国家、
the Soviet state as he envisaged it,
你必须去新特列季亚科夫画廊的地下室。
you have to go to the basement
of the New Tretyakov Gallery.
但在罗马，因为，不知何故，他们有这种宽容的态度
But here in Rome, because, somehow,
they have this tolerant attitude
历史的每一个部分，都可以让它被记住。
that every part of history,
its OK to have it remembered.
我不认为他们会庆祝，但他们把它留在这里、
I don’t think they celebrate it,
but they leave it here,
也许现在对我们来说是一种错误的教训
maybe almost now for us
as a kind of lesson of a mistake
这不应该再做了。
that shouldn’t be made again.
药膏。
Salve.
你知道吗，在这个头盔里、
Do you know, in this helmet,
你看起来有点像墨索里尼？
you look a little bit
like Mussolini?
安德鲁，这不是一个非常好的说法。
Andrew, that’s not
a very nice thing to say.
墨索里尼通过建筑展示权力的想法
Mussolini’s idea of displaying power
through architecture
并不是一个新概念。
was not a new concept.
它一直是罗马DNA的一部分
It has been part of the Roman DNA
自从凯撒人建造了斗兽场这样的纪念碑后。
since the Caesars built monuments
like the Colosseum.
这种权力架构达到了顶峰
This architecture of power
reached its peak
在巴洛克时代、
during the age of the Baroque,
当一个人在所有其他人之上使用石头和雕塑时
when one man above all others
used stone and sculpture
以表达基♥督♥教会的荣耀
to express the glory
of the Christian church
在众多令人叹为观止的形式中。
in a multitude
of breathtaking forms.
17世纪的伟大雕塑家、画家和建筑师
The great 17th-century sculptor,
painter and architect
吉安-洛伦佐-贝尔尼尼负责许多伟大的作品、
Gian Lorenzo Bernini was responsible
for many great works,
包括圣彼得教堂的柱廊、
including the colonnade
of St Peter’s,
圣安杰洛桥上的美丽雕像、
the beautiful statues which line
the Sant’Angelo Bridge,
和矗立在这个广场上的杰作。
and the masterpiece
which stands in this square.
这里是纳沃纳广场。
This is Piazza Navona.
这是世界上最美丽的广场之一。
This is one of the most beautiful
squares in the world.
非常不寻常的形状。这是一个不寻常的形状
Very unusual shape.
It’s an unusual shape
因为这是
because this was
因佩拉托雷-多米齐亚诺体育场用于跑步。
Imperatore Domiziano Stadium
for running.
所以，人们曾经在这里奔波。
So, the people used
to run around here.
因此，我们已经有了一个体育场的占地面♥积♥、
So, we’ve got the footprint
of a stadium,
但现在它是一个巴洛克式的广场，而且在中间、
but now it’s a Baroque square,
and in the middle,
最有雄心壮志，也许是最辉煌的
the most ambitious,
perhaps the most brilliant
贝尔尼尼对教皇国权力的纪念碑。
of Bernini’s monuments
to the power of the papal states.
看看这个。这很奇妙，不是吗？
Look at that.
It’s fantastic, isn’t it?
你知道吗，他几乎没有机会设计这个，因为
You know, he very nearly didn’t get
to design this because
委托它的教皇英诺森十世……对。
the Pope who commissioned it,
Innocent X… Right.
…他不喜欢贝尔尼尼
..he didn’t like Bernini
cos贝尔尼尼之前为教皇做了很多工作。
cos Bernini had done a lot of work
for the Pope before.
贝尔尼尼玩了一个聪明的把戏，因为他有一个女性朋友—-。
Bernini played a clever trick,
cos he had a female friend –
一个贵族朋友–他与教皇的关系相当密切。嗯。
an aristocratic friend –
who was quite close to the Pope. Mm.
有一天，她拿着一个银色的模型
And she, one day,
took a silver model
贝尔尼尼的喷泉——。
that Bernini had made
of a fountain –
一个想象中的喷泉–并把它带入潘菲利宫。
an imaginary fountain – and took it
into the Pamphili Palace.
那是教皇的家族宫殿。
That was the family palace
of the Pope.
他看到这个银色的模型、
And he saw this silver model,
他说，”哦，那是我的喷泉。
and he said,
“Oh, that’s my fountain.
“这就是我梦寐以求的喷泉。”
“That’s the fountain
I’ve been dreaming of.”
她说：”是的，但这是贝尔尼尼的作品。”
And she said,
“Yes, but it’s by Bernini.”
他说，”哦，好吧，贝尔尼尼会得到这份工作。
And he said, “Oh, well,
Bernini’s going to have the job.
“我说不，但我必须说是，因为它是如此美丽。”
“I said no, but I’ve got to say yes
cos it’s so beautiful.”
这就是它在大理石上的结果。
And this is how
it turned out in marble.
这都是卡拉拉大理石吗？所有卡拉拉大理石
Is that all Carrara marble?
All Carrara marble
与一整块埃及方尖碑
with an entire Egyptian obelisk
古罗马人从古埃及掠夺来的、
pillaged from ancient Egypt
by the ancient Romans,
这是在贝尔尼尼的喷泉上面设立的。
which was set up
on top of Bernini’s fountain.
所以，喷泉的想法是，整个世界—。
So, the idea of the fountain
is that the whole world –
象征着四大洲的大河——。
symbolised by the great rivers
of the four continents –
整个世界都在畏惧这个教皇的竖立、
the whole world is cowering in awe
of this papal erection,
这个教皇权力的象征。
this symbol of papal power.
贝尔尼尼就是这样一个罗马人。
Bernini is such a Roman.
你知道，他几乎得到了罗马的大理石
You know, he’s almost got
Roman marble
在他的血管里的，而不是血。
in his veins instead of blood.
因此，他非常清楚地知道，古罗马的雕塑家们
So, he knows very well
that the ancient Roman sculptors
创造了这些河神的形象。
created these figures
of the river gods.
但在贝尔尼尼，一切都与运动、动作、戏剧、剧院有关。
But in Bernini, everything is about
movement, motion, drama, theatre.
如果过去的罗马河神被唤醒了、
If the Roman river gods of the past
have been woken up,
他们已经被赋予了动力和活力。
they’ve been dynamised
and energised.
每个人都有不同的姿态。
Each one has a different pose.
这个是河滩，是新世界。
This one is the River Plate,
the New World.
那是恒河。这就是印度。
That’s the Ganges. That’s India.
这不是很好吗 – 棕榈树只是有点
Isn’t that wonderful –
the palm tree just sort of
向方尖碑的底部生长？
growing up towards
the base of the obelisk?
我的意思是，这很神奇，它是由这种大理石制成的、
I mean, it’s amazing,
how it’s made of this marble,
和特拉维蒂诺。
and the travertino.
还有这个运动的想法是不可思议的，不是吗？
And also this idea of the movement
is incredible, isn’t it?
嗯，狮子在喝酒。这就是它在做的事情。
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