这群人里没有镇定剂。
There’s no downers in the fucking bunch.
这是托尼告诉我的他最喜欢的歌♥。
This was what Tony told me was his favorite song.
他爱死这首歌♥了。
He loved this fucking song.
这是一首很棒的歌♥。
It’s a great song.
但这是海♥洛♥因♥音乐。
But it’s heroin music.
70年代初，这是我住的地方。
In the early ’70s, this is where I lived.
那时候，如果你给我们带海♥洛♥因♥，我们会说”太酷了”
You know, back then, if you brought us heroin, we would’ve said, “ah, cool.
我将完全…我也想尝尝。”
I’ll totally… I would like to try some of that.”
我并不是无意中沉迷其中，或者是不小心上瘾了，你知道的，“哦，真的上瘾了?”
It wasn’t like I fell into it or accidentally got addicted or, you know, “oh, really, it’s addicting?
哎呀，这是怎么回事?”不,我知道。
Gee, how’d that happen?” No, I knew.
他从未真正处理过不安全感以及所有让他走上那条路的问题。
He never really dealt with the insecurity and all the issues that put him down that road to begin with.
你知道，跟乔说这件事就容易多了，因为，那个混♥蛋♥太黑暗了。
You know, it’s a lot easier when you talk to choe about this, ’cause, like, that motherfucker is so dark.
♬从我的头顶飞过……♪
♪ Flying over my head… ♪
大家都忘了安东尼·波登是个瘾君子。
People forget Anthony bourdain was a junkie.
他是个瘾君子，我也是。
Like, he’s a drug addict, and I’m also a junkie.
我不吸毒，但我什么都做。
I don’t do drugs, but I do everything else.
暴食者匿名，债务人匿名，赌徒匿名，性成瘾者匿名，性和爱情成瘾者匿名。
Overeaters anonymous, debtors anonymous, gamblers anonymous, sex addicts anonymous, sex and love addicts anonymous.
我参加了所有的互助会。
Uh, I-I go to all the meetings.
我要告诉你一件我很丢脸的事。
I’ll tell you something really shameful about myself.
我第一次注射的时候，对着镜子里的自己咧着嘴笑。
The first time I shot up, I looked at myself in the mirror with a big grin.
你知道，我身上缺了点什么。
You know, something was missing in me.
我内心有些想成为一个瘾君子。
Some part of me wanted to be a dope fiend.
我的一生都是为了那一刻。
My whole life was leading up to that point.
在我看来，这是我成为艺术家的第一步。
In my mind, it was my first step towards being an artist.
你认为某种程度的不满意或不快乐是创造过程中不可分割的一部分吗?
Do you think a-a certain level of dissatisfaction or unhappiness is an integral part of the creative process?
我认为即使是伟大的艺术也可以在你快乐的时候创造出来，但我认为宇宙中最好的艺术是通过强烈的痛苦创造出来的。
I think even great art can be created when you’re happy, but I think the best art in the universe is created through intense suffering.
那么，你会让自己一直处于痛苦之中吗?
So then, do you put yourself in a situation where you’re constantly in pain?
这个问题的答案是肯定的。
And the answer to that question is yes.
这就是我认识的所有人。
That’s just about everybody I know.
我不知道这说明了我什么。
I don’t know what this says about me.
我想那是我和他的第一次对话。
I think it was one of the first conversations I ever had with him.
我就想，嘿，我知道我才刚认识你，但除了你，我不知道还有谁戒毒了。
“I was like,” hey, I know I’m just meeting you, “but I-I don’t know one heroin addict “that has quit cold Turkey besides you.
告诉我你是怎么做到的。”
Tell me how you did it.”
我挺过去了，但是，你知道，我的案子，就像我看着镜子，然后我…我看到了值得拯救的人，或者是我想要努力去拯救的人。
I got through, but, you know, my case, it was like I looked in a mirror and I… I saw somebody worth saving, um, or that I wanted to at least try real hard and save.
嗯…你知道,没有人……没人救了我。
Um… You know, nobody… Nobody saved me.
他说”你只管工作”
And he goes, “you just work.”
当他告诉我这些时，我第一次见到他时就相信了。
When he told me that, I bought into it when I first met him.
随着我对他了解的加深，我意识到这一点。
And then as I got to know him more, I realized it jumped.
成瘾吓了一跳。
The addiction jumped.
当他投入某件事时，他完全投入。
When he threw himself into something, he threw himself completely.
柔术很好，因为他变得超级健康。
Jujitsu was a good one because he got super healthy.
他看起来很好。他停止吸烟。
He looked great. He stopped smoking.
他感到精力充沛。
He felt energized.
他感觉强大。
He felt powerful.
哦。
Oh.
中止。
Abort.
我从58岁开始。
I started at 58.
我妻子是一个相当高水平的竞争者，嗯，训练每一个…比你的水平高?
My wife is a fairly high-level competitor and, uh, trains every… Higher level than you are?
远远超出了我的想象。-是的。
W-way, way beyond – where I’ll ever be. – Yeah.
奥塔维亚想杀死任何袭击他们女儿的人。
Ottavia wanted to be able to kill anyone who came at their daughter.
这就是那个家庭最初对柔术感兴趣的原因，对托尼来说，痴迷一段时间是件好事。
So that’s where the initial jujitsu interest in that family came from, and it was a good thing for Tony to be obsessed with for a while.
在压力下解决问题的这一方面对他很有吸引力。
There is this aspect of problem-solving under pressure that it was really appealing to him.
一步结束了!
Step over!
但是任何学柔术的人都会变得，让人无法接近。
But anyone who gets into jujitsu becomes, like, impossible to be around.
我知道,因为……从经验。
I know because… From experience.
在某种程度上，你会想，“伙计，别再谈他妈的柔道了。”
At a certain point, you’re like, “dude, come on, stop talking about fucking jujitsu.”
我对柔术一窍不通。
I don’t know anything about jujitsu.
我不能跟你谈这个话题，但我已经跟你谈了150小时的柔术了。
Like, I can’t have this conversation, and yet I’m on like hour 150 talking to you about jujitsu.
我是说，他的注意力和专注力非常强，但总是有时间限制的。
I mean, his attention and focus was so strong, but there was always a timeline.
我不认为在他的世界里有什么东西是永恒的。
I don’t think there was anything that would have lasted forever in his world.
没有人，没有地方，没有东西，没有兴趣。
No person, place, thing, interest.
我得先给你看。
I have to show you first.
我能给你看一次吗?好吧。
Can-can I show you once? Okay.
然后跳过一个，往下走。
Then you skip one and you go down.
然后跳过一个，往下走。
Then you skip one and you go down.
然后你回来…
Then you come back up and…
似乎他一直想要的，就是，田园般的生活，就像，你知道，一个家庭和普通的生活。
It always seemed like what he wanted was, you know, this, uh, idyllic picture of, like, you know, a family and ordinary life.
——没有。-拜托，是你做的…但当他拿到的时候，我不知道是不是…我不知道。
– No. – Come on, you were doing it… But then when he got it, I don’t know if it was… I don’t know.
是的。
Yeah.
过了一段时间，也许这已经不够了。
After a while, maybe that wasn’t enough anymore.
你把你的书献给了家人。
You devoted your book to family.
是的。
Yep.
做普通人的快乐。
The joys of being normal.
现在你已经离开了。
And now you’ve-you’ve split.
——是的。-所以我就…你是不是在重新考虑做正常人，或者你的…-我是说，什么才算正常?
– Yep. – So I just, like… Are you rethinking about being normal – or where’s your… – Well, I mean, what is normal?
我想，美国家庭是什么样的?
I think, you know, what does the American family look like?
我一年有250天在旅行。
I mean, I travel 250 days a year.
你知道，我还能有多正常吗?
You know, how normal could I ever hope to be?
托尼和我几乎是分开住在同一个屋檐下…很长一段时间了。
Tony and I had been pretty much living separate under the same roof for… For quite some time.
即使我们不是夫妻，我们还是很好的朋友我们的关注点是阿丽亚娜。
You know, even if we didn’t work out as a married couple, you know, we’re still really good friends and our focus was ariane.
那种浪漫的爱情在他开始强烈的旅行后就消失了，然后我们就不能跟着他了。
That romantic love kind of dissipated after he started traveling so intensely, and then we couldn’t follow him.
它每五年开一次花。
It flowers once every five years.
这是所有。
That’s all.
我会在它再次开花前回来的。
I’ll be back before it flowers again.
穿过我的心。
Cross my heart.
他会很绝望。
He was devastated.
他正在失去他的本垒。
He was losing his home base.
这让他变得非常脆弱。
And it left him incredibly vulnerable.
我想托尼确实是自责。
I think Tony did blame himself.
我想这也让他怀疑自己是否可爱。
And I think it also left him wondering whether or not he was lovable.
是一个人待在一个很糟糕的地方更糟糕呢，还是一个很好的地方却不能和任何人分享?
Is it worse to be some place awful when you’re by yourself or some place really nice that you can’t share with anyone?
我的意思是，我有一封他发给我的邮件，让我很困扰，很直接…你知道，突然之间。
I mean, I have an email that he sent me that-that haunts me that was just straight-up… You know, out of the blue.
“大卫，问这个问题太疯狂了……”
“David, this is a crazy thing to ask…”
＂…但我很好奇，现在我的生活一团糟。”
“…but I’m curious and my life is sort of shit now.”
“你成功了，我也成功了。
“You are successful and I am successful.
“我想知道:
“And I’m wondering:
你快乐吗?”
Are you happy?”
我知道写那封邮件对他来说有多难。
I know how hard that must’ve been for him to even write that email.
去找一个人然后说”嘿，伙计，我做得不好”
To-to reach out to someone and be like, “hey, man, I’m not doing well.”
他与孩子和奥塔维亚生活的那个时代……我认为这是对他轨迹的一种干扰。
The era of his life with his child and ottavia… I think it was sort of an interruption of his trajectory.
在过去的两年里他改变了方向吗?
Did he change course in the last two years?
不，他回到了正轨，但这并不是最好的轨道。
No, he got back on track, which was not the greatest track.
你好,托尼。你好吗?
Hi, Tony. How are you?
我一切都好。在这里吗?
I’m all right. Here?
突出。好。
Outstanding. Good.
太棒了。
That’s awesome.
我甚至还带来了一张纸条……我把笔记。
I even brought a note… I took notes.
我在想我所有的…所有的疾病和问题。
I was thinking of all my… All of my ailments and problems.
自从我…我那时还是个青少年。
I haven’t done this since I was, um… Uh, I was a teenager.
我父母发现我吸毒，作为交易的一部分，我去看了心理医生。
My parents caught me with drugs, and as part of the deal, I saw a therapist briefly.
你对此有何感想?
And what did you feel about it?
这是没办法让人筋疲力尽。
It’s-it’s exhausting.
我是说，我确实有点躁狂的性格。
I mean, I do tend to have a sort of a manic personality.
一切都进行得非常非常顺利或者并不顺利。
Everything is going really, really great or it’s not going great.
它随时都可能发生。这是随机的。
It can happen at any time. It’s a random thing.
前一分钟我还好一切都很顺利然后突然就…一件小事让我很生气，然后我发现自己，呃，你知道，越来越多地，呃，在想……
One minute, I’m okay, everything’s going all right, and then suddenly it’s… One little thing just sort of sets me off, and then I find myself, uh, you know, increasingly, uh, thinking…
我想，我想，我想，我想，我想伤害别人或自己的瞬间幻想。
I do, I do, I do, I think about, like, momentary fantasies of harming other people or myself.
就像我想杀了人或者掐死他们或者扭断他们的胳膊。
Like I want to kill somebody or choke them or break their arms.
这事我想了很多。
Uh, I think about that a lot.
我想要更快乐。
I’d like to be happier.
我希望能更冷静一些。
I’d like to be able to be calmer.
我希望能放松一下。
I’d like to be able to relax.
我希望能够，你知道，看着窗外说，“耶，生活很美好。”
I’d like to be able to, you know, look out the window and say, “yay, life is good.”
-你不喜欢?——没有。
– And you don’t? – No.
从来没有吗?
Never?
也许这里几秒钟，那里几秒钟。
Uh, maybe a few seconds here and there.
在你的生命中有一条线是孤独的或者感觉像”我想杀了某人”
There is a line during your life of loneliness or-or feeling like “I want to kill somebody.”
我觉得你应该开始思考”你真的想改变什么吗”
I think that maybe you should start thinking, “do you really want to change anything?”
你真的想改变你的感觉吗?
Do you really want to-to change the way you feel?
我怀疑已经太迟了。
I suspect it’s too late.
