we went to a food safety lab in Seattle.
我们买♥♥了五个品牌的生鸡肉送验
We picked up five brands of raw chicken and tested them.
实验室说不会有任何阳性的结果
And we were told by the lab, “You’re not gonna get positive results.”
因为样本太小
“It’s too small of a sample.”
结果我们有验出一件阳性 是宝凋的产品
We got one positive results, and it was Perdue.
可以请问你对此有何反应吗?
Can I just ask for your reaction to that?
我会说拿一盒鸡肉来讨论根本不公平
I would say a chicken is, uh, not even a fair thing to talk about.
话说回来,我们动辄检验数百隻禽隻
Uh, so, I mean, again, we run hundreds of birds
进而瞭解实际状况
in order to understand where we’re at.
另一方面我会纳闷
And the other part is I would wonder
是哪一种沙门氏菌 – 但话虽如…
what the salmonella was in particular.
是婴儿型
It was infantis.
对,话虽如此 讨论一盒鸡肉被检出,完全不公平
Yeah. Having said that, one chicken is not a fair… uh, fair discussion at all.
你觉得怎样的样本数才是公平?
What do you think would be a fair sample set?
在购买♥♥后短时间内检验150个样本
A hundred and fifty, uh, in a relatively short period of time.
(纽约州纽约市,光秃秃棒棒鸡腿)
(加州洛杉矶,乔氏超♥市♥)
(堪萨斯州,雷内克萨)
(纽泽西州,联合郡)
(田纳西州纳许维尔,食品狮子)
(华盛顿州西雅图)
所以你们在未来五週内
So you’re going to be testing 150 chicken parts
将要帮我们检验
for us over the course of five weeks
美国国内四大品牌共150盒的鸡肉
from the top four major brands in this country.
(IEH实验室暨顾问集团 分子流行病学公♥司♥)
你们已经接近完成检验…
You’re close to the end of testing all one hundred–
对,我们进行了大约60%的检验
We’re slightly– We’re about 60% of testing
如果你们有意送验150份样本的话
if you intend to bring in 150.
太好了,如果我在超♥市♥买♥♥鸡肉
Great. If I buy chicken at the grocery store,
我应该假设那对我是安全的吗?
should I assume it’s safe for me?
在美国从任何超♥市♥购买♥♥禽肉
In this country, if you buy poultry, uh, from any grocery store,
不论是哪种品牌的禽肉
regardless of the brand of poultry that you buy,
主要的假设都应该是
your… your primary assumption should be that
其中含有沙门氏菌 和曲状杆菌等病原体
it contains pathogens such as salmonella and campylobacter.
事实上裡头有沙门氏菌的鸡肉 是可以贩售的
The fact of the matter is salmonella in chicken is okay to be sold.
这不算是掺假
It’s not an adulterant.
所以在知情下贩卖♥♥遭沙门氏菌 或曲状杆菌污染的鸡肉,是可以的
So it’s fine to knowingly sell salmonella, campylobacter-tainted chicken.
有些很出名的桉例 政♥府♥和业界就直接说
There was a famous case where the government and industry simply said
保护家人是家庭主妇的责任
that it was the housewife’s job to protect the family.
(《厨房♥安全守则》)
说到底就是
What it boils down to
法♥院♥裁定沙门氏菌
is the courts ruled that, you know,
不能被视为掺假
the salmonella can’t be considered an adulterant
因为家庭主妇知道要如何烹调鸡肉
because housewives know how to cook chicken.
她能够像是婆婆那样
Can she prepare those favorite dishes of Tim’s
煮出提姆最爱的菜色吗?
just like his mother used to make?
所以这不会造成人类染病的威胁
And therefore, it doesn’t pose a threat to human illness.
记住,谨守厨房♥安全守则至关重要
Remember, it pays to play safe in the kitchen.
此一糟糕的法♥院♥判例 对于美国的沙门氏菌管理规范
This terrible court case dealt a death blow
可说是致命的一击
to… to regulation in the United States regarding salmonella.
很遗憾地,对于之后的许多人 也真造成了致命的结果
Sadly, a true death blow to a lot of people since.
美国农业部两手一摊说
The USDA throws up its hand and says,
“有毒的沙门氏菌 是生鸡肉当中正常的一环
“Toxic salmonella are a normal part of raw chicken.”
不想吃到有毒的沙门氏菌? 那就确实煮熟”
“You don’t want toxic salmonella? Cook it.”
这是我们正在设法改变的事
That’s what we’re trying to change.
这个责任不该落在消费者身上
The burden shouldn’t be with consumers.
也所以我们向美国农业部提出请♥愿♥
And that’s why we filed a petition with the USDA.
(比尔马♥勒♥ 正式向美国农业部提出请♥愿♥)
(在商业中禁止31株沙门氏菌)
欢迎,我要说有各位同场
Well, welcome. Let me just say it’s so good to really be,
真的非常棒
uh, with… with all of you.
我非常尊敬各位的建树
I… I just have such high regard for the work that you do and…
比尔,我知道你的请♥愿♥正在进行中
I know, Bill, you have petitions that you have moving forward,
还有莎拉,妳的也是
and Sarah, you do, uh, as well.
想要请各位说一下最新的进展
And I’d love to have you just update me.
我提出了非常广泛的请♥愿♥ 实质上会是包含
I made a really broad petition that would essentially encompass
把所有造成人类疾病的沙门氏菌 都视为掺假
making all salmonellas that cause human disease an adulterant.
在沙地上画一条线说 在食物当中汝不可有
Draw a line in the sand and say, you know, “Thou shalt not have a pathogen
可能会让你的孩子 染病或送命的病原体
in your food that can sicken or kill your kid.”
这有科学的支持
Science supports that.
对,这些病原体正在利用 现今体系的缺口
Yeah, these pathogens are taking advantage of the gaps we have in our current system.
对
Yeah.
我认为我们大家做的努力 共同的思路是
I mean, I think the common thread of all the work that we’re all doing
让现在运作的老旧系统进行现代化
is modernizing the outdated system that we have now.
那正是这次对话的重点
That’s the importance of this conversation.
莎拉,妳说到缺口
You spoke, Sarah, about the gaps.
我从立法的观点来说
Mm. – Where are– And I speak legislatively.
有哪些我们需要填补的缺口?
Where are the gaps that we need to try to fill in?
我们其实没有哪个政♥府♥单位
We really don’t have a government agency
能够去农场查看食安风险
that’s able to go onto farms and look at food safety risks.
他们可以管理造成动物疾病的疾病
They can regulate diseases that cause animal illnesses,
但对于能够造成人类疾病的疾病 却是视而不见
but they turn a blind eye to the diseases that cause human illness.
如果那会让人生病
If it makes you sick…
我们就来立法管理
…let’s regulate it.
我们做得到
We can do it,
但不用我告诉在场的各位
but I… I don’t have to tell anyone around this table
游说团体的力量有多大
about the strength of the lobby.
对 -没错
Right. – Yeah.
你们得要知道对手的能耐
You have to know what you’re up against.
食品游说团体目前比消费者更有力
The food lobbyists are more powerful than the consumer at the moment.
这是很政♥治♥的事
It’s… it’s very, very political.Um…
以我看来,是很危险的事
In… in a very, um… in my view, in a dangerous way.
食品公♥司♥恨透了管理规范
Food companies hate regulation.
他们花大钱雇用游说图体
They pay very expensive lobbyists
游说联邦政♥府♥
to lobby the federal government
确保管理监督十分有限
to make sure that the regulatory oversight is extremely limited.
主席女士和各位委员
Madam chairman and committee members,
诸位可以瞭解,如我今天讲述的内容
as you can appreciate, there are many issues impacting the state
有许多问题正在冲击养鸡业的现况
of the chicken industry as I speak to you today.
他们去国会说:
They go to Congress and say,
“我们知道你们正在考虑一项法桉
“We know you’re considering a bill
要通过对于食安非常严格的管理规范
to pass very tight regulations about food safety.”
亨利福特曾经说过: “不要找缺失,要找解决方法”
As Henry Ford once said, “Don’t find fault. Find a remedy.”
我们一做出提议
As soon as we propose something,
业界团体就会跑来
you know, the industry groups are gonna come in,
提出自己的说法
and they’re gonna have their stories
说什麽这会对业界造成负担
about why this would be burdensome on industry,
肉价也将会变得更贵
and meat prices are gonna go higher,
有人会失业、说这是消费者的责任
people are gonna lose their jobs, and it’s the consumer’s responsibility.
当时O157: – H7型大肠杆菌 被列为掺假
All those arguments were the ones they said,
他们也用过同样的主张
you know, when E. coli O157: – H7 was listed as an adulterant.
说什麽世界将会瓦解,但是并没有
You know, the world was gonna fall apart, and it didn’t.
我曾任食安副次长
I was the undersecretary for food safety
那是美国层级最高的食安官员
which was the highest-ranking food safety official in the US.
而我是科学家,不是政♥治♥人物
And, I mean, I’m a scientist. I’m not a politician.
我是要让粮食供给安全
I was there to make the food supply safe.
把私心和政♥治♥利益放一旁
When you put agendas and, you know, political interest aside,
才能够解决问题
then you can solve problems.
可以研究数据找答桉
You can get data, you can find the answers,
然后就能找到真正管用的方法
and then you can find something that actually works.
管理规范显然很重要 我并没有否定这件事
Obviously, regulations are important. I’m not saying they’re not.
但在得要开始施行管理之前
But it’s better for us to be able to come to the table
能够先上桌讨论对我们会比较好
before we have to move to regulation.
当妳被川普总统提名担任这个职位
When you were nominated for your position by President Trump,
全国养牛业协会的游说团体表示
a lobbyist for the National Cattlemen’s Beef Association said that this was
这对于业界是好消息
great news for the industry.
为何业界 对于妳到职特别感到兴奋?
Why was the industry so excited about you in particular?
因为我是科学家
Because I’m a scientist,
他们知道我会做出基于科学
and they knew I’d make data-driven, science-based decisions.
让数据说话的决定
It had nothing to do with the fact
这无关多年来妳接受同样的团体
that you had received a lot of money for your research
捐赠了许多研究经费吗?
from this very same group over the years?
不是,我是说…无关
No. I mean…No.
我但愿那些经费是我私人的钱
I do wish that that money, you know, was my personal money.
但不是,那是大学被给与…
It never– It wasn’t. It was university given to–
那是给与大学做研究的钱