纽伦堡的审判（1961）

因为他是个很聪明的人
He was always a man of great intelligence
他天生有法律的头脑
He was a man born with the qualities of a great legal mind
威克博士
Dr Wieck, would you, uh…
你能否从你的角度告诉我们
would you tell us, from your own experience
德国司法部是否受阿道夫·希♥特♥勒♥控制
the position of the judge in Germany prior to the advent of Adolf Hitler?
司法部是独♥立♥的
The position of the judge was one of complete independence
恩
Mm-hm
那你如何解释
Now would you describe the contrast, if any
在1933年纳粹上台以后的情况
after the coming to power of National Socialism in 1933?
法官们要被迫接受一些权力的改变
Judges became subject to something outside of objective justice
他们受国家利益支配
They were subject to what was necessary for the protection of the country
你可以解释一下吗 -首先要替法官考虑的是
Would you explain this, please? -The first consideration of the judge
他们没有对抗国会的权力
became the punishment of acts against the state, rather than objective consideration of the case
还有什么变化吗
And what other changes were there?
上诉权也被取消了
The right to appeal was eliminated
最高法♥院♥被人♥民♥特殊法♥院♥取代了
The Supreme Court of the Reich was replaced by peoples’ and special courts
种族概念第一次写入了法律
The concept of race was made a legal concept for the first time
结果如何
And what was the result of this?
结果
The result?
结果是移交了司法部的权力
The result was to hand over the administration of justice
变成了专♥政♥
into the hands of the dictatorship
威克博士 -劳森上校
Dr Wieck… -Colonel Lawson
我想问几个问题
I’d like to ask a few questions
司法部是否有对此提出抗♥议♥
Did the judiciary protest these laws abridging their independence?
有一些人提出 其他的都顺从或被迫顺从了
A few of them did. Those who did resigned or were forced to resign
其他的
Others…
就直接顺应新局势了
adapted themselves to the new situation
司法部是否有意识到巨大的转变
Do you think the judiciary was aware of the consequences to come?
起初或许没有
At first, perhaps not
后来只要是人就都知道了
Later it became clear to anyone who had eyes and ears
谢谢
Thank you
你可否告诉我们刑法方面的修改
Now, would you please describe for us the changes in criminal law
明显的特征是死刑条款增多了
Its characteristic was an ever-increasing inflation of the death penalty
只要是波兰人或犹太人
Sentences were passed against defendants
都要受到审判
just because they were Poles or Jews, or politically undesirable
纳粹的衡量方法也被引进
Novel National Socialist measures were introduced
对人种进行分类
among them sexual sterilisation for those who were categorised as asocial
在1935年法官是否需要特别标记
Was it necessary for judges to wear any distinctive mark on their robes in 1935?
这就是所谓的 “法萨法案”
The so-called “Führer’s decree”
要求法官穿上十字记号♥的法官袍
required judges to wear the insignia of the swastika on their robes
你有佩带吗 -不
Did you wear such an insignia? -No
我以此为耻
I would have been ashamed to wear it
在1935年你是否辞职 -是
Did you resign in 1935? -Yes, sir
欧内斯特·姜宁有穿上吗
Did Ernst Janning wear a swastika on his robe?
是
Yes
问毕 谢谢
That’s all. Thank you
罗尔福先生
Herr Rolfe
正义的威克博士
Herr Justizrat Dr Wieck
你刚才提到 “出于保护国家的必要 ”
You used the phrase “necessary for the protection of the country.”
你可以说明一下
Would you explain the conditions in Germany
当时德国的情况吗
at the time National Socialism came to power?
什么情况
What conditions?
当时有饥荒
Would you say there was widespread hunger?
是
Yes
还有国内的不统一
Would you say there was internal disunity?
是
Yes
有共♥产♥党吗 -是
Was there a Communist Party? -Yes
是德国的第三大党吗
Was it the third largest party in Germany?
是
Mm… yes
你是不是要说纳粹某种程度上拯救了国家
Would you say that National Socialism helped to cure some of these conditions?
是 但付出了惨重的代价
Yes, but at a terrible price, and…
请你直接回答问题就可以了
Please, confine yourself to answering the questions only
那么 一个法官如果不♥穿♥那样的法官袍
Therefore, was it not possible that a judge might wear a swastika
他是否还有可能继续为他的国家工作
and yet work for what he thought was best for his country?
不 不可能
No. It was not possible
威克博士
Dr Wieck
据你所说
you were not in the administration from the years 1935 to 1943
1935 到 1943 年你不在行政部门
by your own admission
你是否可能知道行政部门被扭曲
Is it not possible that your view of the administration might be distorted?
不
No, it is not
那你怎么可以对行政部门作证
How can you testify about events in the administration if you were not there?
在政♥府♥机构我有很多朋友
I had many friends in the legal administration
那里有期刊和书籍
There were journals and books
期刊和书籍
From journals and books?
我明白了
I see
你刚才提到
Dr Wieck, you referred to “novel National Socialist measures introduced
纳粹的衡量方法被引进
among them sexual sterilisation.”
那你是否知道里萨法案不是纳粹原创呢
Are you aware that sexual sterilisation was not invented by National Socialism
而是在数年前
but had been advanced for years before as a weapon
针对处理不合格的囚犯制定的
in dealing with the mentally incompetent and the criminal?
是 我知道
Yes, I am aware of that
你是否知道这在其他国家也被倡导
Are you aware it has advocates among leading citizens in many countries?
我不是这方面的专家
I am not an expert on such laws
允许我为你读一段
Then permit me to read one to you
这是最高法♥院♥意见
This is a High Court opinion
这在别国法律中存在
upholding such laws in existence in another country
我来引用
And I quote:
我们不止一次见到社会福利
“We have seen more than once that the public welfare
号♥召生活最优越的公民
“may call upon their best citizens for their lives
如果不能号♥召那些
“it would be strange indeed if it could not call upon
替那些低能者而为国家消耗精力的人
“those who already sap the strength of the state for these lesser sacrifices
0,0,
这样做总好过
“it is better for all the world
等待已退化的后代因为犯罪而将他们处死
“if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime
或者是等待他们因为愚蠢而饿死
“or to let them starve for their imbecility
社会可以首先通过医学方式防止他们的繁衍
“society can prevent their propagation by medical means in the first place
“三代的愚蠢已经足够了 ”
“Three generations of imbeciles are enough.”
现在你想起来了吗 威克博士 -不 没有
Do you recognise it now, Dr Wieck? -No, sir, I don’t
事实上你也不知道
Actually, there is no particular reason you should
因为这是引用自
since the opinion upholds the sterilisation law in the state of Virginia
美国维吉尼亚法案
of the United States
美国法理学家
and was written by that great American jurist
奥立弗·温德尔·福尔摩斯
Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes
威克博士
Now, Dr Wieck
从刚才所听到的
in view of what you have just learned
你是否还要说里萨法案是「纳粹的衡量方法」呢
can you still say that sexual sterilisation was a “novel National Socialist measure”?
是 可以这么说
Yes, I can say it
因为这在以前从来没有对政♥治♥犯适用过
because it was never before used as a weapon against political opponents
你是否有过这样的经历
Do you personally know of a case
处理这样的政♥治♥犯
where someone was sterilised for political reasons?
我知道有这样的事情 -这不是我的问题
I know that such things were done. -That’s not the question
请回答 你是否知道
Please answer the question. Do you know of a case?
我不知道这样特种的案例
I don’t know of any specific case or specific date
那么你是否有相应的第一手资料
I am asking if you have any first-hand, personal knowledge of such a case!
不 我没有这方面的知识
No, I have no such personal knowledge
谢谢
Thank you
威克博士
Dr Wieck
你知道有关对欧内斯特·姜宁的控诉吧
you are aware of the charges in the indictment against Ernst Janning?
是
Yes, I am
你认为他是否需要负责
Can you honestly say he is responsible for them?
是
Yes, I can
你认为自己没有责任
Do you consider yourself free of responsibility?
是
Yes, I do
你是否有在1934年的文职人员誓词中发誓
Dr Wieck, did you ever swear to the Civil Servant Loyalty Oath of 1934?
法官大人 我反对
Your Honour, I object
证人无须回答 他不是在受审
The witness doesn’t have to answer that question. He’s not on trial
全德国都在受审 当审理欧内斯特·姜宁的时候
All Germany is on trial. This tribunal put it on trial when it indicted Ernst Janning
为了寻找责任 需要扩大范围
If responsibility is to be found, the widest latitude is to be permitted
反对无效
Objection overruled
你是否有在1934年的文职人员誓词中发誓
Did you ever swear to the Civil Servant Loyalty Oath of 1934?
每个人都发誓了 -我们对每个人不感兴趣