哈利路亚：莱昂纳德·科恩，一段旅程，一首歌（2021）

CARLILE: For me, Jeff Buckley’s “Hallelujah”
是我唱歌♥的动因，是我唱歌♥的方式
is paramount to why I sing and how I sing.
听到他唱出这些歌♥词
Hearing those lyrics come out of his mouth
是它第一次真正打动我。
was the first time it really got me.
我立即迷上了它。
I became immediately obsessed with it.
我睡觉的时候，会把它
I would put it on repeat
放在枕边单曲循环
next to my head when I’d go to sleep.
我有个一体式的CD机。
I had a little boom-box CD player.
整晚听它。
And just listen to it all night long.
它给与我许多梦境和幻觉
And it kind of informed a lot of my dreams and visions.
那时候，是它促使我
It was what was causing me
去调和我的信仰和性行为。
to reconcile my faith and my sexuality at the time.
是它让我感受到…
It was what was helping me…
那个叙事的一部分。
feel a part of that narrative.
它唤起了一些最原始的人类欲望。
It evokes some of the most primitive human desires.
它把它与一个概念结合起来
And it marries it with a concept
我们很多人都在挣扎，
that so many of us struggle with,
这就是灵性。
which is spirituality.
莱昂纳德-科恩明白
Leonard Cohen somehow understood
哈利路亚 并不是一首教堂歌♥曲
that “Hallelujah” wasn’t a church song,
而是一个领悟的时刻…
but that it was actually a moment of realization that…
发现生命可以如此苦难。
life can be desperately hard.
对我来说，这就是我想每天对自己
And for me, that was just something I really wanted to say
真正诉说的东西
every day to myself,
因为我正在经历成长的那个阶段
as I was going through that phase of coming-of-age
并试图理解，嗯…
and trying to understand, um…
年轻、忠贞和同性恋意味着什么。
what it meant to be young, faithful and gay.
非常感谢您!
Thank you very much!
科恩：你正在看的是我在音乐会上的简介。
COHEN: You’re watching an in-concert profile of me.
我不想说太多关于我自己的事情
I don’t want to say too much about myself
因为你们中的大多数人都不知道我是谁。
because most of you don’t know who I am,
而那些知道的人已经知道一些
and those of you who do already know something
关于我奇异的职业生涯和我过去30年
about my curious career and my marginal presence
在音乐界里边缘的存在。
on the edge of the music scene for the past 30 years.
我在这里呆了这么久的原因之一
One reason I’ve hung around so long
是我做一张专辑需要四五年的时间。
is it takes me four or five years to do an album.
科恩：我的生活中有一种巨大的无序感。
COHEN: I had a great sense of disorder in my life,
混乱、抑郁、苦恼。
of chaos, of depression, of distress.
我不知道这是从哪里来的。
I had no idea where this came from,
流行的精神分♥析♥的解释
and the prevailing psychoanalytic explanations
似乎并没有解决我的感受。
didn’t seem to address the things I felt.
ALL： ? Hallelujah… ?
ALL: ♪ Hallelujah… ♪
在某一时刻，我完成了巡回演出。
At a certain point, I’d finished the tour,
而且我喝了很多酒。
and I’d been drinking a lot,
渐渐地变得更加苦恼。
which became progressively more distressing.
我在演艺界看不到更多的未来。
And I didn’t see much more future in show business.
采访者： 你花了很多时间在洛杉矶以外的地方。
INTERVIEWER: You’ve been spending a lot of time outside of Los Angeles.
库恩：是的。有一个禅宗寺院
COHEN: That’s right. There’s a Zen monastery
我一直住在鲍尔迪山（南加州景区）上。
that I’ve been living at on Mount Baldy,
大约6500英尺高。
about 6500 feet up.
我曾到鲍尔迪山拜访过他。
BACAL: I visited him up at Mount Baldy.
那是一个原始的岩石堆。
It was a primordial rock pile.
那不是一个舒服的地方。
It was not a comforting place.
好吧，禅宗的修行也不是舒适的。
Well, Zen practice isn’t comforting either.
它，呃……它不适合温和的人。
It’s, uh… It’s not for the meek.
这是一种严格的生活。
COHEN: It’s a rigorous life.
它的目的是要推♥翻♥你。
It’s designed to overthrow you.
如果不是关乎生存。
If it isn’t a matter of survival,
关乎生死，抑或治疗疾病。
of life and death, of healing or sickness,
我不认为任何头脑正常的人
then I don’t think anyone in their right mind
会进行这样的训练。
would undertake this kind of training.
采访者。那么，对你来说，这几乎就是医学了？
INTERVIEWER: So it’s almost like medicine for you, then?
库恩：嗯，这是一场认真、精确的自省
COHEN: Well, it’s a very careful and precise investigation
对我来说迫在眉睫。
into the self that was urgent for me.
如果你在一个冥想厅里坐着
If you’re sitting in a meditation hall
每天坐四五个小时，
for four or five hours a day,
你就会对自己有一种直接的了解。
you kind of get straight with yourself.
所以这不是在宗教转变的层面上。
So this is not on the level of a religious conversion.
它更接近于科学而不是宗教。
It’s closer to science than religion.
采访者。作为一个作家，你觉得这对你有启发吗？
INTERVIEWER: Do you find it inspiring as a writer?
科恩：我认为这就像剥开洋葱的一层层皮。
COHEN: I think it’s like peeling away the layers of the onion,
这也是我一直在使用的过程
which is the process I’ve always used
总之用在写作中
in writing anyways.
你不断地丢弃那些
You keep discarding the stuff
太容易或太过口号♥化的东西。
that is too easy or too much of a slogan.
是的，这种练习很有价值。
Yeah, this kind of practice is valuable,
但任何形式的训练或环境或处境
but there’s no guarantee that any kind of training
都无法保证能写出一首好歌♥。
or environment or situation results in a good song.
BACAL：他告诉我，当他坐禅的时候
BACAL: He told me that when he sat in Zazen,
他就在写歌♥。
he was writing songs.
这和人们想象中的坐禅
That’s not exactly what one would think
有点不一样
you’re doing in Zazen.
坐禅时，你会放空你的思想。
In Zazen, you would clear your mind.
采访者： 你为什么离开鲍尔迪山？
INTERVIEWER: Why did you leave Mount Baldy?
库恩：我觉得我在那里呆得够久了。
COHEN: I felt I’d been there long enough,
我发现自己对罗西说
and I found myself saying to Roshi
我想是时候下山了。
that I think it’s time to go down the hill for a while.
斯洛曼：”哈利路亚”，你知道，是有翅膀的。
SLOMAN: “Hallelujah,” you know, obviously had wings,
但真正打破它的东西是什么？
but what was the thing that really broke it?
第一个电影版本是什么时候？
When was the first movie version?
当时只有凯尔，然后是巴克利…
It was just Cale, then Buckley…
然后…
And then…
采访者： 然后是史莱克。史莱克。
INTERVIEWER: And then Shrek. Shrek.
所以《怪物史莱克》打破了它。
So Shrekreally broke it.
我还没有看过《怪物史莱克》。
I have not seen Shrek.
实际上我需要了解一下，那是一部卡♥通♥片吗？
And I actually just need to check, is that a cartoon?
詹森：它是同类型里的第一部。
JENSON: This was the first of its kind.
他们不是传统的童话人物。
They weren’t traditional fairytale characters.
音乐也是不同的。
And the music was different.
它准确反映了我们的喜剧美学和…
It just reflected our comedic aesthetics and…
能吸引我们..,
what would keep us,
坐下来看一部电影的东西。
keep our butts in a seat watching a movie.
我是莱昂纳德-科恩的粉丝。
And I’d been a fan of Leonard Cohen
从90年代初开始
since the early ’90s.
我是通过《我是你的粉丝》接触到他的。
I came across him throughI’m Your Fan,
和约翰-凯尔版本的 “哈利路亚 ”
and John Cale’s version of “Hallelujah.”
我只是一遍又一遍地播放这首歌♥。
I just played that over and over and over again.
而作为这部电影的新导演
And one of the first jobs I was given,
我的第一项工作是
as a newer director on the movie,
“把这个时刻想清楚”。
was “figure this moment out.”
这只是这种有趣的、复杂的感情组合
It’s just this interesting, complex mix of feelings
你在家庭电影中不常会看到。
that you don’t often see in a family movie.
但我们一致地喜欢它。
But we all agreed we loved it.
我们的制片人阿伦-华纳说。
And Aron Warner, our producer, said:
好的，这很好。去把它想出来。
Okay, that’s great. Go figure it out.
所以我在歌♥词上下功夫。
So I worked with the lyrics,
剪短这首歌♥，留出恶搞的的部分
trimming down the song to edit out the naughty bits
并将歌♥曲缩减到，你知道的，两分钟内。
and get the song down to, you know, a couple of minutes.
采访者。哪些是恶搞的部分？
INTERVIEWER: What are the naughty bits?
詹森：哦，”把你绑在厨房♥的椅子上”。
JENSON: Oh, “Tied you to a kitchen chair,”
和那些非常私人的歌♥词
and all of the very personal lyrics
那些特别的关于关系中的
that had to do with the specific
性相关的方面。
sexual aspect of the relationship.
并且我们剪短了副歌♥
And we trimmed down choruses
然后根据这个版本重新制♥作♥了故事板。
and then re-storyboarded to that version.
科恩：约翰-凯尔向我要了一堆歌♥词。
COHEN: John Cale asked me for a bunch of lyrics.
是他z《史莱克》里的，还是鲁弗斯-温莱特的？
Is his in Shrek or is that Rufus Wainwright’s?
采访者。这是个好问题。
INTERVIEWER: That’s a good question.
我认为是Rufus的。
I think it’s Rufus’s.
WAINWRIGHT：关于我与 “哈利路亚 “的关系，有趣的是，
WAINWRIGHT: What’s interesting about my relationship to “Hallelujah”
我根本不知道这首歌♥。