哈利路亚：莱昂纳德·科恩，一段旅程，一首歌（2021）

The feminine voice of God that extends into people.
Bat Kol降临了。
The Bat Kol arrives,
如果你为她服务，你就写下她说的话。
and if you’re in her service, you write down what she says.
然后她就走了。
And then she goes away.
所以困惑的国王意思是
So the baffled king is:
我刚刚写下了秘密的和♥弦♥
I just wrote the secret chord
我甚至不知道我是如何得到它的。
and I don’t even know how I got it.
但我认为我所做的，是让自己对Bat Kol敞开心扉。”
But what I think I did is I made myself open to the Bat Kol.”
提炼自己，去
Refine yourself enough
让Bat Kol看到你是开放的。
that the Bat Kol recognizes that you’re open.
她降临了。
She arrives.
你说话。
You speak.
她离开了。然后你去打磨它。
She departs. And you polish it.
采访者： 《多重身份》是这张专辑的名字。
INTERVIEWER: Various Positions is the name of the album.
而在同一时间，同一年，我们有《怜悯之书》。
And at the same time, same year, we haveBook of Mercy.
《怜悯之书》是怎么来的？
How didBook of Mercy come about?
科恩：这是一本祈祷书。
COHEN: It’s a book of prayer.
当然，这些歌♥曲是相关的。
The songs are related, of course.
我想每个人的作品都是一体的。
I think everybody’s work is all of one piece.
采访者。在某一点上，我想你是说，也许不止一点。
INTERVIEWER: At one point, I think you say, perhaps at more than one point,
你说，”虽然我不相信。”
you say, “Though I don’t believe.”
科恩：我说了好几次。
COHEN: I say that a couple of times:
虽然我不相信，但我现在来到你面前
Though I don’t believe, I come to you now
我把我的怀疑交给你的怜悯。”
and I lift my doubt to your mercy.”
那种与永恒的对话。
That kind of conversation with eternity,
哦，这当然是深藏在犹太人传统中的
oh, it certainly is deep in the Jewish tradition
对上帝的质疑。
of questioning God.
而且我认为这是一种合理的关注。
And I think it’s a legitimate concern.
SLOMAN：我想那是1988年。
SLOMAN: I guess it was 1988,
莱昂纳德在巡演时…
Leonard goes on tour and…
他开始唱《哈利路亚》，突然…
he starts singing “Hallelujah,” and all of a sudden…
新的歌♥词。
new lyrics.
采访者： 有没有哪一节歌♥词
INTERVIEWER: Is there any verse
是从没有人听过的
that actually no one has ever heard of
你能告诉我们吗？
that you could tell us?
有的。我不知道它们有多出众。
There are. I don’t know how distinguished they are.
但 “哈利路亚 “这首歌♥有很多诗句。
But there are a lot of verses to the song “Hallelujah.”
它们是这样的
They go like this:
宝贝，我曾经来过这里
Baby, I’ve been here before
我知道这个房♥间，我走过这层楼”
I know this room I’ve walked this floor”
我说，”等一下。
I said, “Wait a minute.
我们不是在《旧约》中了。”
We’re not in the Old Testament anymore.”
这是更世俗的。
It’s more secular.
这就像一首完全不同的歌♥曲。
It’s like a completely different song.
而我对自己说，”这他妈的是什么？”
And I’m saying to myself, “What the fuck?”
你说了一些有趣的事情，关于
SLOMAN: You said some interesting things about
你之所以重写其中的一些歌♥曲
the reason you rewrote some of these songs
因为你觉得继续写宗教歌♥曲
because you felt that it was inauthentic
已经不再是真诚的了
to write religious songs anymore.
科恩：就其本身而言，没有什么不对。
COHEN: In and of itself, there’s nothing wrong with it.
关键是你是否能支持它。
It’s whether you can get behind it.
我有大卫王的歌♥。
I had the King David song.
对我来说，使用《圣经》中的比喻很容易
It was easy for me to use that Biblical metaphor
直到有一天，我在话语上卡住了
until the time came when I choked on the words
因为它不够直接。
because it simply wasn’t direct enough.
我想把这首歌♥推向世俗世界的深处。
COHEN: I wanted to push the song deep into the secular world,
进入普通人的世界。
into the ordinary world.
“哈利路亚”这个词，你一旦脱离它的宗教性
HANSARD: “Hallelujah” was a word that you don’t really get to use
使用起来就会非常不习惯
without sounding too religious.
莱昂纳德把这个词从天上拉下来
Leonard pulled that word out of the sky
把它拉到了地上。
and pulled it down to the earth,
使这个词重获新生
and made the word okay again.
再次变得时髦且可用
And hip again and usable again, you know?
非常感谢你们，朋友们。
Thank you so much, friends.
快进几年
SLOMAN: Fast-forward a couple of years
我在Leonard的办公室里闲逛。
and I was hanging out at Leonard’s office,
而他当时的经理
and his then-manager
告诉我，呃，他们正在做一张致敬专辑。
told me that, uh, they were doing a tribute album.
这将是一张致敬专辑
It was going to be a tribute album
叫做《我是你的粉丝》。
to Leonard calledI’m Your Fan.
我可以推荐一些人加入吗？
Could I suggest people to be on it?
我曾与约翰-凯尔合作多年。
And I had worked for years with John Cale,
和约翰一起写歌♥词。
writing lyrics with John.
约翰喜欢莱昂纳德的作品。
And John loves Leonard’s work.
所以我说，”对，凯尔是个完美的人选。”
So I said, “Yeah, Cale would be perfect.”
采访者： 今天我们欢迎约翰-凯尔来到演播室。
INTERVIEWER: We welcome John Cale to the studio today.
他是地下丝绒乐队的创始人之一。
One of the founders of the Velvet Underground,
与Nico和Lou Reed合作。
worked with Nico and Lou Reed,
以及几乎所有你想得到的其他人。
and pretty much everybody else you’d care to think of
在他杰出的50年职业生涯中
during an extraordinary 50-year career,
处于摇滚和流行音乐创新的最前沿。
at the forefront of innovation in rock and pop music.
约翰-凯尔加入了我们。
John Cale joins us.
我想我们必须讨论的一件事是
One of the things I thought we’d have to discuss
在复兴 “哈利路亚 “的过程中
is the role that you played
你所扮演的角色
in reviving Leonard Cohen’s “Hallelujah.”
你早在其他艺术家录这首歌♥之前
How did you cotton on to the potential,
就发现了它的潜力，发现了
the power of Leonard Cohen’s song
科恩的歌♥曲的力量，你是如何做到的？
long before other solo artists recorded it?
嗯，我记得看我过莱昂纳德-科恩唱这首歌♥。
CALE: Well, I remember seeing Leonard doing it
在纽约的灯塔剧院。
at the Beacon in New York.
我以前没有听过这首歌♥。
I hadn’t heard it before,
它把我吓了一跳。
and it just knocked me sideways.
所以我想，我可以把它改成一首钢琴独奏的歌♥。
So I thought, I could do this as a solo piano thing.
这是个实验。
This is an experiment.
这首歌♥是由Leonard Cohen写的。
This song was written by Leonard Cohen.
汉萨德：我记得约翰-凯尔翻唱过这首歌♥。
HANSARD: I remember John Cale covering that song.
我记得我说：”哇，好深入的切口啊。
I remember going, “Wow, what a deep cut.
你刚刚选了一首我知道的莱昂纳德的歌♥。
You’ve just picked a song of Leonard’s that I know,
但不是很多人都知道这首曲子。”
but not a lot of people know that tune.”
斯洛曼：然后我打电♥话♥给约翰，说。
SLOMAN: Then I called up John and said:
约翰，歌♥词有变化。
John, there’s different verses.
这是在专辑中的那首歌♥。
There’s the song that’s on the album,
这是他在现场演唱的那首歌♥。
and then there’s the song he’s doing live.
看看你能不能拿到所有的歌♥词。”
See if you can get all the verses.”
好吧，我有一吨♥的诗句，它们真的很出色。
CALE: Well, I got a ton of verses that are really gorgeous.
但其中有些我自己都唱不出来。
But some of them I couldn’t sing myself.
其中一些是关于宗教的
Some of them were about religion
并反映了莱昂纳德的背景。
and reflecting Leonard’s background.
所以我选择了厚脸皮的诗句。
So I took the cheeky verses.
那个版本对我来说是很美的。
The spareness of that version was beautiful to me.
约翰有一种真正的天赋
John has a real talent
他能删去所有不必要的东西。
for pulling away all of the unnecessary stuff.
很棒的是，他把这首歌♥的灵性的版本
SLOMAN: And it was great that he was combining the spiritual
和世俗版本结合到了一起
and the secular versions of that song.
凯尔的确拥有了这首歌♥。
Cale really owned that song.
他真的把它变成了个人的。
He really made it personal.
但是，这也是因为，你知道。
But again, that’s because, you know,
凯尔是一个像莱昂纳德一样经历过战争的人。
Cale’s a guy like Leonard who’s been through the wars.
所以，你知道。
So, you know.
克莱尔森：我不记得我什么时候第一次听到 “哈利路亚 “。
CLARKSON: I do not remember the first time I heard “Hallelujah.”
但我很确定
But I’m pretty sure
我第一次听到 “哈利路亚 ”
that the first time I heard “Hallelujah,”
不是莱昂纳德唱的
Leonard wasn’t singing it.
我想一定是听的杰夫-巴克利的版本？
I think I must have heard Jeff Buckley?
哈利路亚 的第一个版本
The first version of “Hallelujah”
我听的是杰夫-巴克利。
I heard was Jeff Buckley.
杰夫-巴克利。
Jeff Buckley.
我不知道，大概是杰夫-巴克利那个版本
I don’t know, the Jeff Buckley seems to be theversion
因为我有时甚至会感到震惊。
because I’m even shocked sometimes,
即使在互联网上，
even when you go on the Internet,
有时你看到电视上的人，他们说，