For some reason, the number 180 comes to mind.
可能是150，但那也是很多诗句。
It might’ve been 150, but it was a lot of verses.
有时我想，我将延续
Sometimes I think that I would go along
老的“垮掉”的哲学
with the old Beat philosophy:
灵光乍现，完美的灵感。
First thought, best thought.
但这对我来说从来没有用。
But it never worked for me.
几乎没有什么灵光乍现。都是劳作。
There hardly is a first thought. It’s all sweat.
不，但是，我的意思是，你是一种…
No, but, I mean, you are kind of…
传递这种经验的人…
transmitting the experience…
或把它传给另一代人。
or passing it along to another generation.
这种经验是什么？这是一种，呃… …
What is the experience? It’s the experience of, uh…
工作的经验…
of work…
以及失败的经验。
and of failure.
还有，呃…
And, uh…
你只是试着尽可能准确地描述它。
You just try to lay it out as accurately as you can.
我有八年没见到他了。
LISSAUER: I hadn’t seen him in eight years,
76年到84年。
’76 to ’84.
于是我的莱昂纳德时代就结束了。
And so my Leonard days were done.
但在1984年，我接到一个电♥话♥。
Except in 1984, I get a phone call.
他说，”你想做一张唱片吗？”
He said, “Do you want to make a record?”
斯洛曼：回到利索尔制♥作♥《多重身分》。
SLOMAN: Going back to Lissauer to produceVarious Positions,
这可能是来自
that may have been occasioned by
与Phil Spector合作的副产物。
the excesses of working with Phil Spector.
利索尔，编曲真的是
Lissauer, the arrangements
更加微妙，更加优雅。
were much more subtle and much more elegant,
我认为，它真的。
and it really, I thought,
我认为，它能更好地体现出歌♥词的细微差别。
brought out the nuances of the lyrics much better.
这非常令人惊讶，但奇怪的是……
It was very surprising but oddly…
呃，同时也很欣慰。
uh, comforting at the same point.
我一定是一直知道我们还没有完成。
I must have always known that we weren’t done.
喂？
Hello?
现在，在这一点上。
LISSAUER: Now, at this point,
他半定期地在纽约。
he was in New York on a semi-regular basis,
他住在皇家通酒店。
and he was staying at the Royalton.
所以他说，”到我房♥间来吧。
So he said, “Come on up to my room.
我给你演奏一些歌♥。”
I’ll play you some songs.”
所以我在酒店里，他拿出了吉他。
So I’m in the Royalton, and he’s got his guitar out,
他在他面前的桌子上还放了个小装置。
but he also has a little device on his table in front of him.
没怎么敲镲片，但他…
Not quite as many cymbals, but he goes…
我说，”这是什么？”
I’m saying, “What is this?”
所以我说，”哎呀。
So I’m saying, “Jeez.
这有点像库尔特·威尔（德国作曲家）遇见….
That’s kind of like Kurt Weill meets, um…
你知道，30年代的柏林那种。”
You know, it’s Berlin in the ’30s or something.”
起初我以为他是在给我下套。
And at first I thought that he was sort of putting me on.
我是说，这是一张Leonard Cohen的专辑，它是… … 它是，呃… …
I mean, it’s a Leonard Cohen album, it’s– It’s, uh…
它是有触感的，原声的，严肃的，深刻的，历史性的。
tactile and acoustic and serious and deep and historic.
我说，”这些电子的东西。
I said, “This electronic stuff,
这就像后迪斯科时代的东西。”
that’s just like a post-disco thing.”
ISSERMANN：我记得和Leonard的录音室会议…
ISSERMANN: I remember studio sessions with Leonard…
和约翰。
and John.
我记得他们的关系。
I remember their relationship,
他们笑得很开心。
they were laughing a lot.
莱昂纳德工作强度很高
Leonard is very intense
但并不炫耀这种强度，你知道吗？
but with no show-off of the intensity, you know?
他，就像，这种令人难以置信的表演…
He’s, like, producing this incredible performance
并非意图说，”哦，看我。
without intending to say, “Oh, look at me.
我要做一些伟大而困难的事情。
I’m going to do something great and difficult.
拜托了，请关注我。”
Please, I want concentration.”
这是一种真正的创造力。
It’s a real creativity.
哥伦比亚公♥司♥曾要求我们做一张唱片
LISSAUER: Columbia had asked that we do a record
这将使莱昂纳德打入美国市场。
that would put Leonard on the American map.
我们有这首歌♥，”哈利路亚”。
And we had this song, “Hallelujah,”
这是一首类似于流行歌♥曲的歌♥曲，它的影响力更大。
which was pop song-like, and it reached out more.
它只是…
It just had…
相比他的很多作品
a more contemporary possibility to it
它更具现代的可能性
than a lot of his stuff.
我能看到它是多么伟大。
I could see how great it was.
而当我坐在钢琴前，我们开始演奏…
And as soon as I sat at the piano and we started to do…
再一次，有点像6/8拍的福音的感觉，进而更加清晰…
Again, kind of a gospel 6/8 feel, which eventually is…
我最喜欢的地方是结尾处的大洞
And my favorite spot is the big hole in the end
它在那里…
where it goes…
最后一次穿过它，真的是，
The last time through it, really just,
你想，”哦，请做点什么。”
you think, “Oh, please do something.”
当我第一次听到这首歌♥的时候
LISSAUER: When I first heard it,
它有记录在案的诗句。
it had the verses that are on the record.
这就是它。
And that was it.
我从来没有问过他的歌♥词。
And I never, ever asked him about his lyrics.
从没说过，”给我解释一下这个”，
I didn’t ever say, “Explain this to me,”
或者，”这儿有双重含义吗？”
or, “Does this have two meanings?”
所有那些人们想知道的事情。
All the things that people wanna know.
天啊，他是怎么……？
Jeez, what did he…?
我想成为听众。
I wanted to be the audience.
我想把歌♥词变成听众眼中的样子。
I wanted to make of the lyrics what they were to the listener.
我不想知道太多。而且我不想…
I didn’t want to know too much. And I didn’t want to…
我认为要求某人解释他的艺术
I think it’s insulting in a way
在某种程度上是一种羞辱
to ask someone to explain his art.
作品必须自证。
It has to explain itself.
我们都对这张唱片感到兴奋。
We’re all thrilled with this record.
它有如此多的内容。
And there’s so much to it.
这张专辑有三首令人难以置信的好歌♥
There’s three unbelievably great songs
在这张专辑中，我说，”我们已经做到了。
on this album, and I said, “We’ve done it.
真的很棒。”
This is really good.”
我认为哥伦比亚公♥司♥会喜欢这个。
And I think Columbia is gonna like this.
他们会很高兴。
They’re gonna be happy.
他们有他们的国歌♥
They had their anthem
他们在 “跳舞吧 “里有一首流行曲。
and they had a pop tune in “Dance Me.”
它有潜力在任何地方流行起来。
And it had stuff that could catch on all over the place.
我说，你知道，”这就是它。”
And I said, you know, “This is it.”
而且，孩子，我错了。
And, boy, was I wrong.
请坐，我的朋友。
Sit down, my friend.
现在，你的专辑叫《多重身份》。
Now, your album is called Various Positions.
我知道它在英国有售，我发现了。
I know it’s available in England, I found out.
但为什么我们不能在美国买♥♥到它？
But why can’t we get it in America?
哥伦比亚唱片公♥司♥不想把它推出来。
Columbia Records didn’t want to bring it out.
为什么？发生了什么事？
Why? What happened?
他们做了额叶切除术？（一种使人丧失智能的手术）
They have a transorbital frontal lobotomy?
是时候推出这张唱片了。
It was time to present the record.
呃… …
Uh…
他们把它带到了哥伦比亚的新头儿那里。
And they brought it into the new head of Columbia,
沃尔特-耶特尼科夫。
Walter Yetnikoff.
耶特尼科夫不是莱昂纳德那种人。
Yetnikoff was not a Leonard guy.
他非常讨厌它，呵呵。
And he pretty much hated it, heh.
我拜访了哥伦比亚唱片公♥司♥的首席执行官。
I visited the chief executive of Columbia Records.
然后呢？
And?
首先，他审视了一番我的西装。
First of all, he reviewed my suit.
然后他说：
Then he said:
莱昂纳德，我们知道你很棒，
Leonard, we know you’re great,
但我们不知道你是否对我们有用。”
but we don’t know if you’re any good.”
真的吗？
Really?
那张唱片专辑从未在美国发行过，是吗？
CLARKSON: That record album never came out in the States, did it?
没有，哥伦比亚唱片拒绝发行它。
No, Columbia Records refused to put it out.
为什么？他说，”我不喜欢这个混音”。
Why?He said, “I don’t like the mix.”
我说，”你来混音，耶特尼科夫先生。
I said, “You mix it, Mr. Yetnikoff.
如果这就是要阻止你发行唱片的原因。
If that’s what’s going to stop you putting out the record,
你就做完混音之后发行吧。”
you just mix it and put it out.”
对我来说，那是如此令人厌恶、可怕和令人心碎。
To me, that was so disgusting and terrible and heartbreaking.
是的。是的。
Yeah. Yeah.
《多重身份》是属于那些小愿景的身份。
COHEN: TheVarious Positions is the positions of the little will.
我们感觉到，有一个愿景
We sense that there is a will
藏在所有事物背后。
that is behind all things.
而我们也意识到我们自己的小愿景…
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