你们分房♥睡吗
You had separate bedrooms?
那是他的书房♥ 他常常睡在那里 是的
It was his office, and he usually slept there, yes.
这样 那你为什么会这么早去他房♥间
I see. What made you go into his room so early?
我通常很早就起床 他有时候也很早
I wake up very early. He did too, sometimes.
我们偶尔会一起度过早上的时间 说说话
We occasionally spent that time together, talking.
在早上六点?
At 6 in the morning?
对 要是我看到他房♥间的灯亮着
Yes, if I saw the light on.
我们虽然不再同床睡 但我们关系很亲近
We’d stopped sharing a bed, but we were very close.
我常常…
I would often…
在他书房♥的床上和他过夜
finish the night with him, in the office bed.
那天我下楼去煮咖啡
I’d gone down to make coffee.
我看到他的房♥间门虚掩着
I saw his door was ajar. and…
然后我看到他躺在地上
I saw him lying on the floor.
没有其他人看到吗
No one else witnessed that?
没有
No.
谢谢 请坐
Thank you, you may sit down.
你知道这件事吗
Did you know that?
你给他开的是哪种抗抑郁药
Which antidepressant did you prescribe?
埃司西酞普兰 每天二十毫克
Escitalopram, 20 mg per day.
是他自己选择停药的吗 – 是的
Was it his choice to stop? – Yes.
大概在他去世前七个月 他想要摆脱对药物的依赖
About 7 months before he died he wanted to wean off.
我推荐每周检查一次循序渐进的方法
I recommended a tapering plan with weekly check-ins.
他有任何自杀的念头吗
Any suicidal ideation?
没有 萨穆埃尔并不抑郁
No, Samuel wasn’t depressive.
我开埃司西酞普兰是为了帮助他
I’d prescribed Escitalopram as an emotional shield
在儿子出事之后进行情绪防护
to help him cope after his son’s accident.
突然停用小剂量药物会引发自杀行为吗
Can sudden withdrawal from a low dose trigger a suicide attempt?
理论上 任何事都有可能
Anything’s possible in theory,
但他为什么要我帮他戒断药物
but why would he have asked me to help him wean off,
然后自己偷偷停药呢 这不合理
then stop behind my back? Makes no sense.
而且也不在我们每周的咨♥询♥中提起这件事?
And no mention of it in our weekly sessions?
你是否曾经有患者自杀
Have you ever had a patient commit suicide,
或尝试自杀
or attempt suicide?
在法语中 自杀
In French, “committing suicide”
同时有尝试自杀和自杀成功的意思
means both trying and succeeding.
这是一种行为
It’s the action.
谢谢你的法语课
Thanks for the language lesson.
没有患者自杀
No patient has committed suicide.
除了马莱斯基先生
Aside from Mr. Maleski,
因为我们就是要来裁定这件事
since we’re here to rule on the question.
不管怎样
In any case.
我们无法将你视为自杀方面的专家
we can’t consider you an expert on suicide,
无论是自杀成功还是自杀未遂
failed or successful.
你说你先生拒绝和你谈论此事
You said your husband refused to discuss it with you,
或与其他任何人谈论此事
or anyone else, apparently.
你觉得是为什么呢
Why. do you think?
因为他觉得很羞愧
Because he was ashamed.
他有很多…
He had a lot of…
这个问题太复杂了 我可以换一种语言说吗
It’s too complicated. Can I change the language, please?
谢谢
Thanks.
对 我觉得那是因为他很羞愧
Yeah, I think because he was ashamed.
萨穆埃尔有很多羞耻感的问题
Samuel had a lot of issues with shame.
这里面很复杂
It’s complicated.
他对教学感到沮丧 它逐渐成了一种负担
He was frustrated with teaching. It had become a burden,
而且他想要写作
and he wanted to write.
在丹尼尔出车祸前后
He’d been working on a novel for years,
他写一本小说已经写了很多年了
before and after Daniel’s accident.
那时候他写的每一个字我都看了
I read everything he wrote.
我觉得写得很好 我也这样告诉他
I thought it was really good and I told him so.
但一天天的 他就是…
But from one day to another, he just…
写不下去了 他停笔了
couldn’t do it anymore, he just stopped.
这件事让他觉得自己是个懦夫
It made him feel like a coward.
他看不起自己
He would belittle himself.
他最终让自己觉得自己无法写作
He ended up convincing himself he could not write
是因为他对药物的依赖
because of his dependency on the medication.
他想要让自己摆脱出来
He wanted to free himself of that,
而他没办法 确实没办法…
and he could not, of course not…
不好意思 我还没有说完
I’m sorry, I’m not finished.
他没法谈论自杀那件事
He could not talk about the suicide attempt
因为他的挫败感让他过于痛苦
because his feelings of failure were just too painful.
他从来没有说过这一点
He never spoke of that.
一次都没有
Not once.
他责怪你在第一次咨♥询♥的时候让他沾上了药
He blamed you for getting him hooked on the pills from the first session.
那让他快疯了
It drove him mad.
那是他和我共同决定的
He and I decided together.
你不能否认你是问题的中心吧
You can’t deny you’re at the center of this equation.
萨穆埃尔来找我咨♥询♥是因为他感到自责
Samuel came to see me because he felt guilty,
但最主要的原因是你责怪他
but mostly because you blamed him.
他把你的行为描述为
He described your behavior
非常羞辱人的
as quite castrating.
你通过强迫他放弃对他
You made him pay
最重要的东西
for the accident
来让他为那次意外付出代价
by forcing him to give up what mattered most to him:
那就是写作
writing.
你给他带来了巨大的情绪起伏
You put him on an emotional rollercoaster.
从一方面来说 没错
On the one hand, it’s true,
你鼓励他写作 希望他成功
you encouraged him to write, wanted him to succeed.
但如果他成功了 那会让你无法承受
But if he had, it would’ve been unbearable for you.
这就是问题所在 这可能都是下意识的
That’s the problem. It may have been subconscious.
那次意外带来的所有物质上的
All the material and psychological burdens
和心理上的负担都是他在承受
resulting from the accident were his to bear.
就像你说的那样 “这是你的问题
It’s as though you said. “This is your problem.
“这是你的责任 你自己处理
“You’re responsible. Deal with it.
“我想从中解脱出来 去写作”
“l want to free myself from that, to write.”
物质上的负担
Material burdens
沃耶特女士也同样承担了
were managed by Ms. Voyter as much as her husband.
我们收集了他们的银行流水 收据等等
We have their bank statements, receipts, etc.
我还提到了情绪上的压力
I’m also talking about the emotional load.
责任感 目的感
Responsibilities, sense of purpose,
焦虑感
anxiety.
在这几方面 萨穆埃尔感到严重失衡了
In those areas, Samuel felt an unbearable imbalance.
所以 你所有的患者的陈述都是事实吗
So, what your patients tell you is the truth?
作为心理分♥析♥师
As a psychoanalyst,
你从来没有想过萨穆埃尔·马莱斯基
you never wondered whether Samuel Maleski
可能需要想象出严重失衡的状态
might’ve needed to imagine an unbearable imbalance
来回避写作吗
to prevent himself from writing?
经过一段时间的了解后 我可以判断哪些是事实 哪些不是
After a while, I can tell what’s real and what isn’t.
你可真幸运
Lucky you.
抱歉打断一下
I’m sorry to interrupt.
你到这里来
You come here,
带着可能是你的看法 然后你告诉我
with maybe your opinion, and you tell me
萨穆埃尔是什么样的人 我们经历了什么
who Samuel was and what we were going through.
但你说的只不过是…
But what you say is just
整件事的一小部分而已
a little part of the whole situation.
有时候
Sometimes,
夫妻
a couple…
就是混乱的
is kind of a chaos
大家都迷失了
and everybody is lost.
我们有时共同作战 有时单打独斗
Sometimes we fight together and sometimes we fight alone,
有时 我们和彼此较劲 这也可能发生
and sometimes we fight against each other, that happens.
而且我觉得有可能萨穆埃尔
And I think it’s possible that Samuel
需要像你说的那样去看待这些事 但…
needed to see things the way you describe them, but…
如果我在看心理医生
If I’d been seeing a therapist,
他可能也会站在这里控诉萨穆埃尔有多不堪
he could stand here too and say very ugly things about Samuel.
但我们说的这些都是真的吗
But would those things be true?
在儿子出事之后 你是不是怨恨你的丈夫
Did you resent your husband after your son’s accident?
那时我们都在处理
We were both dealing with
我们各自不同的情绪
very different emotions at that time.
是还是不是
Yes, or no?
是 就几天
Yes, for a few days.