与安德烈晚餐（1981）

两份 – 不错 – 不错！
Two. – Great. – Great!
然后 冷拼我想点 普瓦松拼盘
And then I think, to begin with, the Terrine de Poissons.
好的 – 那是什么？
Yes. – What is that?
呃 一种碎肉酱- 挺清淡 鱼做的
Uh, it’s a sort of pate — light, made of fish.
里面有刺吗 – [笑声] 没刺
Does it have bones in it? – [Chuckles] No bones.
非常安全
Perfectly safe.
那啥 Bramborová Polévka是什么？
Well, um –What is the, um, Bramborova Polevka?
一种土豆汤 非常美味
It’s a potato soup. It’s quite delicious.
哦 好 那不错 请给我来一份
Oh, well, that’s great. I’ll have that.
非常感谢 – 谢谢
Thank you very kindly. – Thank you very much.
搞定了 [笑声]
Well. [Laughing]
我们最后一次见面时是什么时候?
When was the last time that we saw each other?
[沃利的独白] 于是我们聊了会儿我的写作和表演
[Wally Narrating] So we talked for a while about my writing and my acting…
还有我的女友黛比
And about my girlfriend, Debby.
然后聊了他的妻子乔姬塔 还有他的孩子们 尼古拉斯和玛丽娜
And we talked about his wife, Chiquita, and his two children, Nicolas and Marina.
[安德烈的笑声] 然后我回到纽约呆着
[Andre Laughing] And I’d stayed back in New York.
终于 我开始旁敲侧击地问他这些年都忙什么
[Wally] Finally, I got around to asking him what he’d been up to in the last few years.
哦天哪 听见它我高兴极了
Oh, God. I’m just dying to hear it.
真的么 – 真的
Really? – Really.
开始 他表现的有点不太情愿聊这个
At first, he seemed a little reluctant to go into it…
所以我接着追问 最后他开始回答我了
So I just kept asking, and finally he started to answer.
…一个会议 关于准戏剧作品的
…conference on paratheatrical work then.
呃 这说起来 大概是五年前了
And, uh, this must have been about five years ago…
葛罗托斯基和我正在沿着第五大道边走边聊
and, uh, Grotowski and I were walking along Fifth Avenue and we were talking.
他邀请我在那个夏天去波兰教课
You see, he’d invited me to come to teach that summer in Poland.
就是开个讲习班 给那些演员啊 导演啊什么的上课
You know, to teach a workshop to actors and directors and whatever.
我已经告诉过他我不想去了 因为 说真的 我没什么可教的
And I had told him that I didn’t want to come, because, really, I had nothing left to teach.
我没什么存货可说的 我一无所知
I had nothing left to say. I didn’t know anything.
我什么都教不了
I couldn’t teach anything.
排演对我来说没任何意义了
Exercises meant nothing to me anymore.
倒腾那些剧本显得很可笑
Working on scenes from plays seemed ridiculous.
我-我不知道该做什么 我是说 我根本就是做不到
I – I didn’t know what to do. I mean, I just couldn’t do it.
所以他说“不如这样 你干脆告诉我 你想要什么才愿意为我办个讲习班
So he said, “Why don’t you tell me anything you’d like to have if you did a workshop for me.
不管多么出格的要求 也许我能满足你呢”
No matter how outrageous. And maybe I can give it to you.”
于是我说 “那好 如果你能给我
So I said, “Well, if you could give me…
40个犹太女人 她们既不说英语也不说法语
“40 Jewish women who speak neither English nor French —
他们是在剧院待了很久的女人
“either women who’ve been in the theater for a long time and want to leave it…
想要离开 又不知道为什么的
“But don’t know why…
要不就是对戏剧有热情的年轻女人 却从没看过一部让她们钟情的戏剧的
“or young women who love the theater, but have never seen a theater they could love.
如果这些女人会演奏小号♥或者竖琴
“And if these women could play the trumpet or the harp…
如果我可以在森林里工作 我就去”
and if I could work in a forest, I’d come.”
[笑声]
[Laughing]
一周 或许两周之后 他从波兰打电♥话♥给我
A week later, or two weeks later, he called me from Poland.
他说 “40个犹太女人有点难找”
And he said, “Well, 40 Jewish women — that’s a little hard to find.”
但他又说 “我的确找到40个相当符合要求的女人了”
But he said, “I do have 40 women. They all pretty much fit the definition.”
他还说“我同时还找到了一些很有意思的男人
And he said, “I also have some very interesting men…
但你不用非得和他们一起工作”
“but you don’t have to work with them.
“这些人的共同点就是 他们都对戏剧抱有怀疑”
“These are all people who have in common the fact that they’re questioning the theater.
“他们不全会小号♥或竖琴 但都至少会一门乐器
“They don’t all play the trumpet or the harp, but they all play a musical instrument.
而且他们没一个会说英语”
And none of them speak English.”
而且 沃利 他替我找到一片森林
And he’d found me a forest, Wally.
森林里仅有的居民就是一头野猪和一个隐士
And the only inhabitants of this forest were some wild boar and a hermit.
他开出的条件是我无法拒绝的
So that was an offer I couldn’t refuse.
我必须得去
I had to go.
所以 我去了波兰 组员是一群非常棒的年轻男女
So, I went to Poland, and it was this wonderful group of young men and women.
他为我们找的那个森林简直绝了
And the forest he had found us was absolutely magical.
你知道吗 那是个巨大的森林
You know, it was a huge forest.
里面的树都那么粗
I mean, the trees were so large…
四到五个人手拉着手 都不能环抱它们
that four or five people linking their arms couldn’t get their arms around the trees.
于是我们在野外露营 在一个小小的城♥堡♥废墟旁
So we were camped out beside the ruins of this tiny little castle…
我们把一块巨大的石板当桌子 围着它吃饭
And we would eat around this great stone slab that served as a sort of a table.
我们的日程通常是日落时分开工
And our schedule was that usually we’d start work around sunset…
一般工作到早上六七点结束
and then generally we’d work until about 6:00 or 7:00 in the morning.
然后 因为波兰人能歌♥善舞
And then, because the Poles love to sing and dance…
我们唱啊跳啊直到到上午10点11点左右
we’d sing and dance until about 10:00 or 11:00 in the morning.
然后我们吃饭 基本上就是面包 果酱 奶酪和茶
And then we’d have our food, which was generally bread, jam, cheese and tea.
接着我们一直从中午睡到日落
And then we’d sleep from around noon to sunset.
严格来说 当然
Now, technically, of course —
严格来说 那种状况是非常有趣的
Technically, the situation is a very interesting one…
因为当你在一座森林里
because if you find yourself in a forest with a group of 40 people…
和40个语言不通的人在一起 你就没有任何锚泊点了
who don’t speak your language, then all your moorings are gone.
愿闻其详
What do you mean exactly?
你看 我们做的一切就是坐在那等待
Well, what we’d do is just sit there and wait…
等着某个人有种冲动去做某件事
for someone to have an impulse to do something.
从某种程度上说 这很像戏剧中的即兴创作
Now, in a way that’s — that’s something like a theatrical improvisation.
你明白的 如果你是一个正在排演契诃夫作品的导演
I mean, you know, if you were a director working on a play by Chekhov…
你可能就会让扮演母亲 儿子 叔叔的演员
you might have the actors playing the mother, the son and the uncle…
全都围坐在房♥间里 做一个剧中没有的假想情节
all sit around in a room and do a made-up scene that isn’t in the play.
比如 你可能会对他们说
For instance, you might say to them…
“听着 假设一个下雨的周日下午 在索林家的庄园
“All right. Let’s say that it’s a rainy Sunday afternoon on Sorin’s estate…
你们都被雨困在了画室里”
and you’re all trapped in the drawing room together.”
于是所有人都会开始即兴表演-
And then everyone would improvise —
说一些 做一些 他们的角色在如此环境下可能去说去做的东西
saying and doing what their character might say and do in that circumstance.
不一样的是 我们在波兰所做的那种即兴创作-
Except that in this type of improvisation — the kind we did in Poland —
主题是每个人自己
the theme is oneself.
它遵循了和即兴演出一样的规则
So, you follow the same law of improvisation…
也就是去做任何角色给你的冲动
which is that you do whatever your impulse, as the character, tells you to do…
但波兰的这个情况里 你就是你的角色
but in this case, you are the character.
所以 再也没有了想象情境让你藏身
So there’s no imaginary situation to hide behind…
也没有了供你藏身的人
And there’s no other person to hide behind.
你所做的实际上就是问一些问题
What you’re doing, in fact, is you’re asking those same questions…
如斯坦尼斯拉夫斯基所说 演员应该从角色出发 时常问自己的
that Stanislavsky said the actor should constantly ask himself as a character:
我是谁？ 我为什么在这？
Who am I? Why am I here?
我从哪来？我将去何处？
Where do I come from, and where am I going?
不同的是 你不再替角色发问 你替自己发问
But instead of applying them to a role, you apply them to yourself.
嗯 – 或者 再换个方式看
Hmm. – Or, to look at it a little differently…
在某种程度上 这就像是一下回到了童年时期
in a way, it’s like going right back to childhood…
一群孩子就这么来到一个房♥间 或者是被领进去的
where a group of children simply come into a room or are brought into a room —
没有玩具 他们开始做游戏
without toys — and begin to play.
这就是成人在重新学着去做游戏
Grown-ups were learning how to play again.
这么说 你们会一起坐在某个地方
So, you would, uh, all sit together somewhere…
然后 呃 你们会以某种方式做游戏
and, uh, you would play in some way.
可你们到底做了什么？ – 好 我给你举个例子
But what would you actually do? – Well, I could give you a good example.
我们在出发去森林前
You see, we worked, uh, together for a week in the city…
会一起在城里工作一周
before we went off to our forest.
当然 葛罗托斯基也在城里
And of course, Grotowski was there in the city too.
我能听见他每晚组织的 一种叫蜂巢的活动
I heard that every night, he conducted something called a beehive.
我喜欢蜂巢的声音
I loved the sound of this beehive…
所以在出发去森林的前一或两天那晚
so a night or two before we were supposed to go off to the country…
我揪着他的领子对他说 “听着 关于这个蜂巢
I grabbed him by the collar, and I said, “Listen, about this beehive.
我有点想参与进来
“You know, I’d kind of like to participate in one.
直觉告诉我它会很有意思”
Just instinctively I feel it would be something interesting.”
然后他说“当然可以 与其只是参与
And he said, “Well, certainly. In fact, why don’t you, with your group…
不如就由你和你的组员来带领蜂巢吧？”
lead the beehive instead of participating in one?”
你知道吗 我 [笑声] 我立马就很紧张 你懂的 然后我说“那么 到底什么是蜂巢”
You know, I — [Laughing] I got very nervous, you know, and I said, “Well, what is a beehive?”
他说 “这么说吧 蜂巢就是
He said, “Well, a beehive is…
在8点钟的时候 一百个陌生人走进同一个房♥间”
at 8:00 a hundred strangers come into a room.”
我说“还有呢” 他说“还有 之后发生的一切都叫蜂巢”
I said, “Yes?” He said, “Yes, and whatever happens is a beehive.”
我说“好 那我该做什么？” 他说“由你决定”
I said, “Yes, but what am I supposed to do?” He said, “That’s up to you.”
我说“别 我真的不想这么做 我只参与就行了”
I said, “No, no. I really don’t want to do this. I’ll just participate.”
他说“不 不 你来领导蜂巢”
And he said, “No, no. You lead the beehive.”
沃利 我那会儿吓坏了
Well, I was terrified, Wally.
我指的是 我有种在舞台上的感觉
I mean, in a way, I felt on stage.
最后我还是做了
I did it anyway.
天哪 跟我说说吧
God. Well, tell me about it.
有这么一首歌♥ 我有它的录音带 哪天我可以放给你听
You see, there was this song– I have a tape of it. I can play it for you one day.
它简直美得难以置信
And it’s just unbelievably beautiful.
我们的组员里有个女人 她知道一点这首圣弗朗西斯之歌♥的片段
You see, one of the women in our group knew a few fragments of this song of Saint Francis…
那是一首感谢主赐予你眼睛的歌♥
and it’s a song in which you thank God for your eyes…
你感谢主赐予你心 感谢主赐予你朋友
and you thank God for your heart, and you thank God for your friends…