与安德烈晚餐（1981）

一整段冒险可以就开始在那间屋子里
well, then a whole adventure can be going on right in that room.
可这一切总是有死去的危险
But there’s always the danger that things can go dead.
那么我真心认为你该做个 某种流浪者之类的
Then I really do think you have to kind of become a hobo or something, you know…
就像凯鲁亚克（垮掉一代作家） 你应该上路了
like Kerouac, and go out on the road.
我真的这么想
I really believe that.
确实 把生命花在路上没有那么美妙
You know, it’s not that wonderful to spend your life on the road.
如果可以 我自己绝对倾向于留在屋子里
My own overwhelming preference is to stay in that room if you can.
可你也知道 如果你和某人共同生活久了 人们会经常说
But you know, if you live with somebody for a long time, people are constantly saying…
“它当然没有过去那么好了，这是自然而然的事
“Well, of course it’s not as great as it used to be, but that’s only natural.
爱情的初潮过去后 这是条必经之路”
The first blush of a romance goes, and that’s the way it has to be.”
听着 我完全不同意这种说法
Now, I totally disagree with that.
我认为你必须时常扪心自问
But I do think that you have to constantly ask yourself the question, with total frankness:
你的婚姻还是婚姻吗？
Is your marriage still a marriage?
它是否还有神圣的成分呢？
Is the sacramental element there?
同样要问 在你的工作中 是否还有神圣的因素呢
Just as you have to ask about the sacramental element in your work–
它还在吗？
Is it still there?
这是件非常可怕的事 沃利 你突然意识到
I mean, it’s a very frightening thing, Wally, to have to suddenly realize…
天啊 我以为自己在生活 可实际上我连人都不曾是
that, my God, I thought I was living my life, but in fact I haven’t been a human being.
我一直是个表演者
I’ve been a performer.
我没有生活过 我一直在表演 我演了一个父亲的角色
I haven’t been living. I’ve been acting. I’ve — I’ve acted the role of the father.
我演了一个丈夫 我演了一个朋友
I’ve acted the role of the husband. I’ve acted the role of the friend.
我演了作家 或导演 或任何什么
I’ve acted the role of the writer, or director, or what have you.
我和这个人住在同一个屋檐下 却从没真正看到他们
I’ve lived in the same room with this person, but I haven’t really seen them.
从没真正听见他们 从没真正和他们在一起
I haven’t really heard them. I haven’t really been with them.
是啊 我发现有些人 有时候
Yeah, I know some people are just sometimes…
呃 只是肩并肩地共处
uh, existing just side by side.
另一个人的脸 可以突然变成一张狼的脸
I mean, uh, the other person’s, uh, face could just turn into a great wolf’s face…
都不会被注意到
and, uh, it just wouldn’t be noticed.
不会被注意到 是的 没人会发现
And it wouldn’t be noticed, no. It wouldn’t be noticed.
你看 当我前不久在以色列的时候-
I mean, when I was in Israel a little while ago —
我有一张乔姬塔的照片 那是她-
I mean, I have this picture of Chiquita that was taken when she —
我总随身带着照片 那是她大概26岁时拍的
I always carry it with me. It was taken when she was about 26 or something.
那是一个夏天 她从一个阳台探出身来
And it’s in summer, and she’s stretched out on a terrace…
穿着一条复古长裙 是某种套裙
in this sort of old-fashioned long skirt that’s kind of pulled up.
她那时苗条且肉感 很美
And she’s slim and sensual and beautiful.
我总是看着这幅照片 只想着她看上去多么性感
And I’ve always looked at that picture and just thought about just how sexy she looks.
而去年在以色列时 我看着这张照片
And then last year in Israel, I looked at the picture…
才发现照片中的脸 是一张世界上最悲伤的脸
and I realized that that face in the picture was the saddest face in the world.
彼时的那个姑娘 是那么迷惘
That girl at that time was just lost…
如此的哀伤和孤独
so sad and so alone.
我一辈子都带着这张照片 却从没真正看懂它
I’ve been carrying this picture for years and not ever really seeing what it is, you know.
我就是没有真正去去看它
I just never really looked at the picture.
然后 到了某个阶段 我才发现自己 走过了大好的十♥八♥年♥ 却没能力感觉
And then, at a certain point , I realized I’d just gone for a good 18 years unable to feel…
除了某些最极端的情况
except in the most extreme situations.
某种程度而言 我仍然有能力活在自己的工作中
I mean, to some extent, I still had the ability to live in my work.
所以我才是那样一个工作狂
That was why I was such a work junkie.
所以我才觉得自己导的每一出戏 都事关我的生死存亡
That was why I felt that every play that I did was a matter of my life or my death.
可在我的真实生活里 我已经死了
But in my real life, I was dead.
我是个机器人
I was a robot.
你看 我甚至不允许自己生气或恼火
I mean, I didn’t even allow myself to get angry or annoyed.
如今 乔姬塔 尼古拉斯 玛丽娜-
I mean, you know, today Chiquita, Nicolas, Marina —
一整天 就像人们常有的 他们做一些让我恼火的事 说一些让我恼火的话
All day long, as people do, they do things that annoy me and they say things that annoy me.
如今我会发火 他们问“你为什么要生气？”
And today I get annoyed. And they say, “Why are you annoyed?”
我就说“因为你们让人恼火”
And I say, “Because you’re annoying,” you know.
当我允许自己考虑
And when I allowed myself to consider the possibility…
不和乔姬塔共度余生的可能时
of not spending the rest of my life with Chiquita…
我发现自己一生所求 就是总与她相随
I realized that what I wanted most in life was to always be with her.
但那时 我还不懂得何谓 让自己对另一个人
But at that time, I hadn’t learned what it would be like to let yourself react…
做出反应
to another human being.
而一旦你不能对他人做出反应
And if you can’t react to another person…
那就没有任何作用与相互作用的可能了
then there’s no possibility of action or interaction.
而如果没有的话 我实在不知道 “爱”这个字意味了什么
And if there isn’t, I don’t really know what the word “love” means…
除了职责 义务 伤感 担忧
except duty, obligation, sentimentality, fear.
我是说-[咯咯笑]
I mean — [Chuckling]
我不知道你是怎样的 沃利 可我-
I don’t know about you, Wally, but I —
我得让自己进行某种训练 才能学着做一个人
I just had to put myself into a kind of training program to learn how to be a human being.
我过去是怎么感受一切的？ 我不知道
I mean, how did I feel about anything? I didn’t know.
什么样的东西是我喜欢的？ 什么样的人是我真心想交往的？
What kind of things did I like? What kind of people did I really want to be with? You know?
而唯一我能想到的发现途径
And the only way that I could think of to find out…
就是切断所有的噪音 停止所有的表演
was to just cut out all the noise and stop performing all the time…
然后只倾听自己的内心
and just listen to what was inside me.
看 我认为是你该这么做的时候了
See, I think a time comes when you need to do that.
也许为了这样做 你得去趟撒哈拉沙漠
Now, maybe in order to do it, you have to go to the Sahara…
也许在家也可以
and maybe you can do it at home.
但是你必须切断噪音
But you need to cut out the noise.
[街上的汽车喇叭声]
[Car Horn Honks On Street]
是的 当然 个人感觉 我就是-
Yeah. Of course, personally, l-I just, uh —
我通常不喜欢[咯咯笑]那些安静的时刻
I usually don’t, uh — [Chuckles] Like those quiet moments, you know.
我确实不喜欢
I really don’t.
我不知道这有没有什么弗洛伊德式的说法
I mean, uh, I don’t know if it’s that, uh, Freudian thing or what —
就是那种对无意识冲动的恐惧
But, uh, you know, the fear of unconscious impulses…
或者对我自己的进攻性的恐惧 这之类的
or my own aggression or whatever, but, uh…
如果一切变得太安静 我发现自己只是坐在那儿
if things get too quiet, and I find myself just, uh, sitting there…
就像我们之前说的那样
you know, as we were saying before…
不管是一个人 还是和别人在一起
I mean, whether I’m by myself, or-or I’m-I’m with someone else…
我总是有这样一种感触-
I just, uh — I just have this feeling of…
呃 天啊 我要被识破了
uh, my God, I’m going to be revealed.
也就是说 我能胜任任何一种工作
In other words, I’m adequate to do any sort of a task, um…
可我却不能胜任 仅仅去-做一个人
but I’m not adequate, uh, just to — to be a human being.
我是说 我不能-
I mean, in other words, I’m not, uh —
如果我只是被困在那儿 而且我不能做什么事的话
If I’m just, uh, trapped there and I’m not allowed to do things…
所以我可以做的就只是 呃 存在
but all I can do is just, um, be there…
那我就会失败
well, I’ll just fail.
也就是说
I mean, in other words, uh…
我能通过任何一种别的考试
I can pass any other sort of a test…
我甚至能得个A 如果我肯花精力的话
and, you know, I can even get an “A” if I put in the required effort…
可我就是没有-
but I just don’t, uh —
没有一点办法去通过这种考试
I just don’t have a clue how to pass this test.
我是说 当然了 我知道这不是考试
I mean — I mean, of course, I realize this isn’t a test…
可是在我眼里它就是个考试
but, um, I see it as a test…
而且我感觉我会考砸
and I feel I’m going to fail it.
这是非常可怕的
I mean, it’s — it’s very scary.
我会有种找不到北的感觉 我是说-
I just feel, uh, just totally at sea. I mean —
好的 我能想象出一种生活 沃利
Well, you know, I could imagine a life, Wally…
每一天都将是一个神奇的 不朽的 创造性的任务
in which each day would become an incredible, monumental, creative task…
而我们未必能承受它
and we’re not necessarily up to it.
比如 你想离开和你共同生活的人 你就离开了
I mean, if you felt like walking out on the person you live with, you’d walk out.
然后如果你想要它 你又回来了
Then if you felt like it, you’d come back.
但与此同时 另一个人会对你的离开做出反应
But meanwhile, the other person would have reacted to your walking out.
那种生活会有这些感情
It would be a life of such feeling.
我领导的那个工作坊 它神奇的一点是
I mean, what was amazing in the workshops I led…
人们似乎如此快地坠入激♥情♥
was how quickly people seemed to fall into enthusiasm…
庆典 欢乐 惊奇 离弃 狂野 温柔
celebration, joy, wonder, abandon, wildness, tenderness.
我们能承受这样去生活吗？
Could we stand to live like that?
我认为 与另一个人产生接触的时刻
Yeah, I think it’s that moment of contact with another person.
那是我们所惧怕的
I mean, that’s what scares us.
那个和他人面对面的时刻
I mean, that moment of being face to face with another person.
你看 现在- [笑声]
I mean, now — [Laughs]
你不觉得这有多吓人 我们感到害怕是很奇怪的
You wouldn’t think it would be so frightening. It’s strange that we find it so frightening.
其实它并不奇怪
Well, it isn’t that strange.
首先 感到害怕是不无原因的
I mean, first of all, there are some pretty good reasons for being frightened.
你知道的 人类是一种复杂和危险的生物
I mean, you know, the human being is a complex and dangerous creature.
说实在的 你要开始活在每一刻？
I mean, really, if you start living each moment?
天哪 那可是个不小的挑战
Christ, that’s quite a challenge.
如果你真的要放开 你要真正投入和他人的接触
I mean, if you really reach out and you’re really in touch with the other person…
那的确是件值得努力的事 我真心这么想
well, that really is something to strive for, I think, I really do.
是的 一个人不这样简直可悲
Yeah, it’s just so pathetic if one doesn’t do that.
当然也有麻烦 因为当你越是接近一个人
Of course there’s a problem, because the closer you come, I think, to another human being…
那个人就越来越彻底的神秘-
the more completely mysterious — and unreachable —
和遥不可及
that person becomes.