与安德烈晚餐（1981）

一整页真实的世界
a whole section of the real world.
可坦白说 你知道么
But frankly, you know…
当我在写一出戏时 在某种意义上 我认为自己正在尝试的是
when I write a play, in a way, one of the things I guess I think I’m trying to do…
试着去勇敢面对一小块的真实
is I’m trying to bring myself up against some little bits of reality…
而且我试着跟观众分享它
and I’m trying to share that, uh, with an audience.
你看-我是说 当然我们都知道
I mean — I mean, of course we all know, uh…
戏剧如今的状况很糟
the theater is, uh, in terrible shape today.
我是说-呃 至少几年以前 真正关心戏剧的人
I mean, uh — I mean, at least a few years ago people who really cared about the theater…
还会说“戏剧死了”
used to say, “The theater is dead.”
可现在 人人都以一种随意的方式 重新定义了戏剧
And now everybody’s redefined the theater in such a trivial way…
我的意思是-天啊
that, I mean — I mean, God…
我认识一些人 他们曾经了解戏剧 也经常去看戏-
I know people who are involved with the theater who go to see things now that —
就在几年前 这些同样的人
I mean, a few years ago these same people…
只要看到某些戏就会尴尬
would have just been embarrassed to have even seen some of these plays.
我是说 他们会畏缩 会害怕 厌恶于
I mean, they would have just shrunk, you know, just in horror…
那些东西的肤浅
at the superficiality of these things.
而如今 他们却说“哦 这还不错嘛”
But now they say, “Oh, that was pretty good.”
简直让人难以置信
It’s just incredible.
我真的对这种态度不堪忍♥受
And I really just find that attitude unbearable…
因为我真心认为戏剧有非常重要的作用
because I really do think the theater can do something very important.
我真心认为戏剧有助于人们 去接触真实
I mean, I do think the theater can help bring people in contact with reality.
现在 当下 或许你根本就感受不到了 你可能觉得那是完全荒谬的
Now, now, you may not feel that at all. You may just find that totally absurd.
是的 可是沃利 难道你看不见困境何在么？
Yeah, but, Wally, don’t you see the dilemma?
你没有把我们生存的时代♥考♥虑进去
You’re not taking into account the period we’re living in.
我是说 这当然是戏剧担负的责任
I mean, of course that’s what the theater should do.
我一向是这样认为的
I mean, I’ve always felt that.
当我还是个青年导演时 我曾在耶鲁执导过《酒神的女祭司》（古希腊悲剧）
You know, when I was a young director, and I directed the Bacchae at Yale…
我有这么个主意 当彭透斯 被他的母亲和复仇女神们杀死时
my impulse, when Pentheus has been killed by his mother and the Furies…
她们把树拉倒 她们把他绑到树上
and they pull the tree back, and they tie him to the tree…
把他扔向空中 他掉下来摔死了
and fling him into the air, and he flies through space and he’s killed…
她们又把他撕成碎片 而且割下了他的头-
and they rip him to shreds and I guess cut off his head —
我忽然有这么个点子 从新港停尸房♥弄一个头颅
my impulse was that the thing to do was to get a head from the New Haven morgue…
然后让观众传阅
and pass it around the audience.
我当时想让阿高厄（彭透斯之母） 带上一个真的头颅
Now, I wanted Agawe to bring on a real head…
这颗头颅要给观众们传看
and that this head should be passed around the audience…
这样人们迟早就会发现 这玩意儿是真的 明白了吗？
so that somehow people realized that this stuff was real, see?
这是个真家伙
That it was real stuff.
不过 扮演阿高厄的女演员 坚决不肯这样做 – [咯咯笑]
Now, the actress playing Agawe absolutely refused to do it. – [Giggling]
戈登·克雷格（英国戏剧家）曾谈到过
You know, Gordon Craig used to talk about…
为什么金银被用在教堂里 或此类的-比如大教堂
why is there gold or silver in the churches or something — the great cathedrals —
而演员能够穿金戴银？
when actors could be wearing gold and silver?
还有 在艾丽奥诺拉·杜斯（意大利演员）人生的最后几年里 去看她演出的人 沃利-
And I mean, people who saw Eleonora Duse in the last couple of years of her life, Wally–
会说仿佛看到舞台上 有光彩 或薄雾
people said that is was like seeing light on stage, or mist…
或是什么东西的精华
or the essence of something.
你再想想贝托尔特·布莱希特（德国戏剧家）
I mean, then when you think about Bertolt Brecht —
他开创了一种戏剧 让观众能够观察和批判
He somehow created a theater in which people could observe…
它在具有极大的愉悦性和刺♥激♥性的同时
that was vastly entertaining and exciting…
又不让你陷入这种刺♥激♥无法自拔
but in which the excitement didn’t overwhelm you.
他通过某些方法给予你一种 观者和舞台表演之间的疏离
He somehow allowed you the distance between the play and yourself…
实际上 这也是人类间共存所必须的
that, in fact, two human beings need in order to live together.
问题是 如今的戏剧是否尚能为观众做到
You know, the question is whether the theater now can do for an audience…
布莱希特想做的 或克莱格 或杜斯想做的
what Brecht tried to do or what Craig or Duse tried to do.
它现在还能做到吗？
Can it do it now?
因为我认为 如今的人都如此沉睡
‘Cause, you see, I think that people today are so deeply asleep…
除了上演那些肤浅的戏剧
that unless, you know, you’re putting on those sort of superficial plays…
帮观众睡的更舒服之外
that just help your audience to sleep more comfortably…
戏剧已经无计可施了
it’s very hard to know what to do in the theater.
[人们的谈话声 笑声]
[People Chattering, Laughing]
我认为如果你上演严肃的时事戏剧作品
Because, you see, I think that if you put on serious, contemporary plays…
由你自己这样的作者写的
by writers like yourself…
可能仅会加剧观众的麻木 只不过方式不同而已
you may only be helping to deaden the audience in a different way.
此话怎讲？
What do you mean?
是这么回事 沃利
Well, I mean, Wally…
这样的一类戏剧 你怎能指望它打动观众？
how does it affect an audience to put on one of these plays…
剧中你展示了 如今的人们已是彻底孤立了
in which you show that people are totally isolated now…
他们触碰不到彼此 他们的生活是绝望的
and they can’t reach each other, and their lives are desperate?
这种戏又怎能打动他们 如果它说的是 我们的世界
Or how does it affect them to see a play that shows that our world…
除了耸人听闻的桃色事件 恐怖 暴♥力♥之外 再别无它物？
is full of nothing but shocking sexual events, and terror, and violence?
这有助于唤醒观众吗？
Does that help to wake up a sleeping audience?
我不这么觉得 因为我认为 极有可能
See, I don’t think so, ’cause I think it’s very likely…
你在那样一出戏中 展示给他们的世界图景
that the picture of the world that you’re showing them in a play like that…
正是他们对世界的既成看法
is exactly the picture of the world they have already.
他们清楚自己的生活和人际关系
I mean, you know, they know their own lives and relationships…
是艰难和痛苦的
are difficult and painful.
如果他们看电视里的晚间新闻
And if they watch the evening news on television…
他们会看到一个吓人的 混乱的世界
well, there what they see is a terrifying, chaotic universe…
到处都是强♥奸♥和谋杀 手被地铁车厢割掉
full of rapes and murders and hands cut off by subway cars…
儿童把他们的父母推出窗子
and children pushing their parents out of windows.
于是 那部戏只能说明 他们关于世界的印象是正确的
So the play tells them that their impression of the world is correct…
而且绝无出路可言
and that there’s absolutely no way out.
他们对此无能为力
There’s nothing they can do.
他们到头来感到消极和无助
And they end up feeling passive and impotent.
看看另一些东西
I mean, look– look, at something like that christening…
比如我的小组在波兰森林 为我安排的洗礼
that my group arranged for me in the forest in Poland.
它就是一个准戏剧的范例 它拥有一切戏剧的元素
Well, there was an example of something that really had all the elements of theater.
安排细致 考虑周全
It was worked on carefully. It was thought about carefully.
它以一种精妙的格调和魔力完成
It was done with exquisite taste and magic.
并且 实际上创造了某些东西
And they, in fact, created something…
就此而言 可以说只为了一个观众- 那就是我
which, in this case, was, in a way, just for an audience of one –just for me.
他们的创造物 包含了仪式 爱 惊喜
But they created something that had ritual, love, surprise…
尾声 开端 起承转合
denouement, beginning, a middle and end…
完全是一出美妙绝伦的戏剧
and was an incredibly beautiful piece of theater.
而且它对它的观众-也就是我 造成的影响
And the impact that it had on its audience — on me —
完全是积极正面的
was somehow a totally positive one.
它没有让我麻木 它带给我生机
It didn’t deaden me. It brought me to life.
好的 你是不是在说 绝无可能-
Yeah, but I mean, are you saying that it’s impossible —
我是说- 这难道不令人有些心烦吗
I mean, uh — I mean — I mean, uh, isn’t it a little upsetting…
下结论说 再没别的途径唤醒人们
to come to the conclusion that there’s no way to wake people up anymore…
除了让他们参与某种古怪的波兰洗礼
except to involve them in some kind of a strange, uh, christening in Poland…
或是某种珠峰上的奇遇
or some kind of a strange experience on top of Mount Everest?
因为你要明白 糟糕的一点是
I mean, uh, because, uh, you know that the awful thing is…
如果你坚持
if you really say that it’s-it’s necessary…
把每个人带上珠峰是必要的
to, uh, take everybody to, uh, Everest…
那就非常棘手了 因为不可能每个人都去珠峰
it’s really tough, because everybody can’t be taken to Everest.
历史上肯定有某些时期 你可以通过不那么极端的手段
I mean, there must have been periods in history when it would have been possible…
去拯救病人
to, uh, save the patient through less drastic measures.
肯定有过某些时期 当你试图给人们传达
I mean, there must have been periods when in order to give people…
一种强烈的或富有意义的感受
a strong or meaningful experience…
你不必当真把他们带去珠峰
you wouldn’t actually have to take them to Everest.
可是现在不同了 从某个角度说 你现在必须这样做
But you do now. In some way or other, you do now.
想当初 你只要写出 比如说
You know, there was a time when you could have just, for instance, written…
随便说说 比如简·奥斯丁的《理智与情感》
I don’t know, uh, Sense and Sensibility by Jane Austen.
我敢肯定读它的人也有过很强烈的感受 我确定他们有过
And I’m sure the people who read it had a pretty strong experience. I’m sure they did.
好了 现在你说今天的人就是感受不到
I mean, all right, now you’re saying that people today wouldn’t get it.
或许那是事实 可难道就没有任何作品或任何戏剧-
Maybe that’s true. But I mean, isn’t there any kind of writing or any kind of a play–
当作家试图描绘现实
I mean, isn’t it still legitimate for writers…
好让人们领悟 这还是正当合理的吗？
to try to portray reality so that people can see it?
说真的 你说为什么我们非得去趟珠峰
I mean, really, tell me, why do we require a trip to Mount Everest…
才能够理解片刻的现实？
in order to be able to perceive one moment of reality?
难道珠峰比纽约要更真实？
I mean — I mean, is Mount Everest more real than New York?
难道纽约不真实？
I mean, isn’t New York real?
我认为如果你能充分意识到
I mean, you see, I think if you could become fully aware…
这家餐厅隔壁的雪茄店里有什么
of what existed in the cigar store next door to this restaurant…
就足以让你眼珠子掉出来
I think it would just blow your brains out.
雪茄店里能被感知的真实
I mean — I mean, isn’t there just as much reality to be perceived…
难道没有珠峰上的多？
in a cigar store as there is on Mount Everest?
你觉得呢？
I mean, what do you think?
我认为珠峰不仅不会更真实
I think that not only is there nothing more real about Mount Everest…
甚至可以说它没什么特别
I think there’s nothing that different, in a certain way.
因为真实在某种意义上 都是相同的
I mean, because reality is uniform, in a way…