库布里克谈库布里克（2020）

“生为杀戮” 长官
“Born to Kill” sir.
你在头盔上写下”生为杀戮” 又戴着和平徽章
You write “Born to Kill” on your helmet and you wear a peace button.
这是什么意思 无聊的玩笑吗
What’s that supposed to be, some kind of sick joke?
不 长官
No, sir.
那这是什么意思
What is it supposed to mean?
而那与荣格学派的二元论相左
And that, of course, is playing off on the Jungian, you know,
也就是利他和协作
ideas of the duality of men, altruism and co-operation
与排他和激进之间的对立
versus xenophobia and aggression, you know.
人们往往看不到自己的阴暗面
The fact that people do not see the dark side of themselves,
并且试图将恶具体化
and tend to externalise evil.
人们只会认为自己是善的
People do only see themselves as good
而视其他人为软弱或是邪恶
and everybody else as either weak or evil.
我的意思是 人们总是
I mean, there is always a problem
无法真正直面阴暗面
when people are confronted with the shadow side.
对于艾利克斯来说
Certainly in the case of Alex,
他一定清楚自己的二元性
he must be aware of his duality
清楚自己的弱点
and he must be aware of his own weakness
这样才能成为正派的人
in order to be good,
或是阻止最糟糕的人格和社会恶习的出现
or prevent the worst kinds of personal and social evil.
你犯了什么罪
What crime did you commit?
意外杀人罪 长官
The accidental killing of a person, sir.
他残忍♥地杀害了一位女士 长官 又洗劫了受害者
He brutally murdered a woman, sir, in furtherance of theft.
服刑十四年 长官
14 years, sir.
完美
Excellent.
他有魄力 争强好胜 勇于表现
He’s enterprising, aggressive, outgoing.
年轻 大胆 恶毒
Young. Bold. Vicious.
他很适合
He’ll do.
在「发条橙」中 他与那些从某种程度上来说
In Clockwork Orange, he was in conflict with people
和他同样邪恶的人发生冲突
who in a way were just as bad as he was in a different sense
而我认为 在情感上 他似乎更没有同情心
and I suppose, in an emotional way, seemed less sympathetic.
不
No!
停下 停下 求你了
Stop it, stop it, please. I beg you.
这是犯罪 这是犯罪
It’s a sin. It’s a sin.
这是犯罪
It’s a sin.
这是犯罪
It’s a sin.
这是犯罪 这是犯罪
It’s a sin. It’s a sin.
犯罪? 这关犯罪什么事
Sin? What’s all this about sin?
如今最令人困惑的社会问题之一是
One of the really most puzzling social problems today
当权者如何在不使用镇♥压♥手段的情况下保持权威
is how can authority maintain itself without becoming repressive.
你会感到年轻人中有一种
You have ever-increasing feeling among young people
认为政♥治♥与社会变革的律法过于陈旧 甚至无用的
that politics and legal means of social change
情绪在日益增长
are too slow and maybe useless.
而另一方面 当权政♥府♥深受
On the other hand, you have authority that feels threatened
恐♥怖♥主♥义♥的和逐渐攀升的无政♥府♥主义浪潮的威胁
by terrorism and this growing sense of anarchy they could feel.
而问题在于 你如何达成
And the question is, how do you achieve,
如果仍有可能的话
if it is possible anymore,
达成某种平衡
some kind of balance.
答案自然不在这个乌托邦式的
It certainly doesn’t lie in this very utopian
乐观积极的设想里
sort of optimistic view
即如果摧毁当局 好事自然降临
that if you destroy authority then something good will come of it.
它自然也不是说
And it equally doesn’t lie by saying, you know,
当局必须加强和巩固自己的权力
authority must impose its will with greater and greater force.
这是一个两难的困境
It’s a dilemma.
伦敦斯卡拉电影院今日
The Scala cinema in London is in court today
出席了关于他们无授权放映
accused of a breach of copyright
争议电影「发条橙」的庭审
after allegedly showing the controversial film Clockwork Orange.
这部电影在英国被禁已有二十余年
The film has been banned in Britain for 20 years
应其导演的要求
at the request of its director
鉴于影评人认为该电影有美化暴♥力♥的嫌疑
after critics claimed it glamorised violence.
新闻节目中的暴♥力♥其实更多
You see more violence on the news program.
约翰·韦恩的电影里的暴♥力♥也更多
You know, you see more violence in a John Wayne film
约翰·维恩经常开枪
Because John Wayne always shoots
而观众都会觉得 “噢 好约翰·韦恩”
and you always feel, “Oh, good old John Wayne.
“他是好人 他杀死坏人”
“He’s the goodie and he shot the baddie.”
这是一种情感上的反应
And it’s an emotional response, you know.
我个人感觉存在于人脑中
I personally feel that it’s more violence of the imagination,
想象的暴♥力♥其实更多
of the mind.
我认为这部电影之所以非常重要 是因为它所表达的
I think the film is very important because the statement it makes
正是人类选择的自♥由♥
is about the freedom of human beings to choose.
这远比媒体和公众
And that’s more important than any of the sensational elements
议论的那些耸动的元素来得重要
that the press and people have been talking about.
除了那群试图证明
Nobody, except people who were trying to prove that
「发条橙」是部邪恶电影的人
Clockwork Orange was an evil film,
没有人相信有人会站在艾利克斯那一边
nobody could believe that one was in favour of Alex,
这只是在讲故事
it’s only that in telling a story like that
所以才会从艾利克斯的感受和角度去表现这个人物
you want to present Alex as he feels and as he is to himself.
在赏析电影的过程中 你可以认为电影表现出对艾利克斯的同情
In analysing the film you could think there was more sympathy for Alex,
但鉴于这是一出带有讽刺性的故事 而讽刺的本质
but since it’s a satirical story, and since the nature of satire is
就是用阐述真♥相♥的方式来阐述真♥相♥的反面
that you state the opposite of the truth as if it is the truth,
我不认为任何有学识的人
I don’t see how anybody of any intelligence
或者甚至是普通人会觉得
or even any ordinary person could think that you really
你真的把艾利克斯当作英雄
thought Alex was the hero.
这可能正是原著吸引我的地方
It’s probably what attracted me to the book.
它描写了一个拥有奇怪的二元性的人物 他有纯粹的恶
It was this strange duality of a character who is plainly evil
但又因为他的恶只是在潜意识的状态展现
and yet because of him operating on this unconscious level
这会让你产生警觉
makes you aware of things in your own personality
反思自己人格中与他相似的部分
which you then identify with him.
邪恶和正义的角色之中 人们通常更会被前者吸引
You are more attracted by evil characters rather than by good ones,
我想到了弥尔顿
I was thinking of Milton, you know,
因此让《失乐园》更加有趣
making Paradise Lost much more interesting.
与其在天堂为仆 不如在地狱为主
Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.
你怎么看这部电影里的人物
How do you see your character in this film?
你认为是什么促成了他的行为
How do you see the reason of his behaviour?
讽刺的是 正因为他渴望写作 渴望创造
It’s very ironical because he wants to write, to be creative…
是的 – 渴望自♥由♥
Yeah… – and he wants to be free
而他反倒成了自己精神的奴隶
and he is a slave, in fact, of his own neurosis.
你只能从杰克的人物性格里补充细节
Well, you can only fill in the details of Jack’s personality.
他对自己极度失望
He is bitterly disappointed with himself.
他显然有着满腔怒火
He’s a person who obviously has immense rage.
他对妻子
He is married to a woman
除了蔑视以外没有任何感情
who he obviously has nothing but contempt for
他不爱自己的儿子
and doesn’t like his son.
然后 你把他放入一个情境中
You then put him in a situation, you know,
将他暴露在旅馆的邪恶力量面前
where he then is exposed to the evil forces in the hotel.
现在便来到故事超自然的部分
Now you’re getting into the supernatural side of the story
其他这些因素只是为杰克成为
and all those other factors simply serve to prepare him
一个满足他们愿望的合格奴仆所做的准备
to make him a suitable servant of their wishes.
不 求求你
Don’t! Please!
不 求求你
No! Please!
这个故事里 至少是你拍摄这个故事的方式中
In this story, I mean, at least the way you have shot it,
总有一种可能 就是这一切都是想象的
there is always the possibility that everything is in the mind.
这正是我认为
Well, this is what I found so ingenious
原著的独到之处
about the way the novel was written.
在你阅读的时候 你会假设正在发生的事情
And you assume as you read it that the things that are happening
很可能是主人公臆想出来的
are probably going to be a product of his imagination.
我认为这点为人们开始接受这个故事提供了契机
And I think this allows you to start accepting them.
你认为在旅馆的幽灵之间存在互动
You think there is an interaction between the souls in the hotel
而不纯粹是主人公精神上的投射
and it’s not purely a projection of his mental thing,
你可以这么理解
well, you can interpret that.
我想我对故事的理解是它是真实的
Well, I mean I interpret the story as being real.
我只是从故事的设定来讲可以接受这一切都是真实的
I mean, I just accept for the story purposes that everything is true.
如果我没记错 一共有三个迷宫
There are three mazes, if I remember well.
一个实体迷宫 一个迷宫的模型
There is the real maze, there is a kind of map or plan of the maze,
还有一个迷宫 从某个角度来看就是旅馆本身
and it’s also the maze is, in a way, is the hotel in reduction
因为旅馆内部充满交错的走廊
because hotels are full of corridors and things like that.
是的 是的
Yeah, yeah.
这个构思十分强大
This idea is extremely powerful
构成了这部电影想象的维度
and it goes with the imaginary dimension of the film.
我记得曾经读到
I remember once reading something about which were,
迷宫可能是生活中许多事物的绝佳比喻
maze seem the perfect kind of metaphor for many things about life