库布里克谈库布里克（2020）

It’s so false.
就摄影而言 「巴里林登」
It was very different to any kind of other movies
和任何类型的电影都很不同 因为打光很…
as far as photography was concerned, because the lightning was so…
你知道 大多是依靠烛光来拍摄的
You know, lot of it was shot by candlelight,
还有很多是斯坦利·库布里克自己找来的东西
a lot of it was shot with equipment that Stanley Kubrick had found,
以前从来没有任何一个电影使用过
that had never been used before on any other film.
所以那是一种很独特的经历
So it was quite an experience working with that.
同时它的难度也相当高 因为很多时候
It was also quite difficult because there were times
你一点都不敢移♥动♥
when you just couldn’t even move a fraction of an inch.
有时大家还要坐在那里被照一整天
And there were days where we would sit there and just be lit all day.
真的是被照了一整天
You know, literally.
塞缪尔 我要出去透口气
Samuel, I’m going outside for a breath of air.
好的 夫人 当然
Yes, my lady, of course.
了解灯光 镜头和构图
To know about lighting and lenses and composition
对做电影导演是会有帮助的
has to be a help as a movie director.
我记得拍「斯巴达克斯」的时候
I remember when I was making Spartacus,
摄影师拉塞尔·麦蒂觉得
the cameraman, Russ Metty, used to think it was very funny
我用取景器来选景很可笑
that I used to pick set-ups with a view finder,
他对我说 “我们从这个角度拍
and he said to me, you know, “We’re shooting in that direction
“这是一个膝上镜头
“and it’s a knee figure shoot
“然后你去和演员排练一遍
“and just, you know, you go and rehearse with the actors
“等回来拍的时候 我们就有这个镜头
“and when you come back we’ll have the shot
“和构图这些东西了”
“and the set-up and everything.”
他不能理解我为什么想要浪费时间在创作构图上
He couldn’t understand why I wanted to waste time making a composition.
显然 摄影给了我第一步
Certainly, photography gave me the first step
真正尝试拍电影的机会
where I could actually try to make a movie
因为如果没有这些 如果你完全不懂摄影
because without that, how could you make a movie by yourself
你要怎么去拍一部电影呢
if you didn’t know anything about photography?
你那个时候拍的是什么样的照片
What kind of photographs were you doing?
你有一张非常著名的
I mean, there is the famous photography
报摊小贩照…
of the newspaper vendor and the…
使用自然光的新闻摄影
Photojournalism with natural light.
卡蒂埃-布列松: 法国著名人文摄影家
大部分是关于街头的 就像卡蒂埃-布列松那样
Mostly things of the street like Cartier Bresson.
不幸的是 「展望」杂♥志♥总是在做专题报道
Well, unfortunately, because Look always did feature stories,
主题总是有些愚蠢
the subject matter was always tended to be idiotic.
他们会做”运动员比婴儿更强壮吗”这样的报道
They would do a story like “Is an athlete stronger than a baby?”
然后我就得去找人
And I would have to go and there’d be some guy
让他们不得不摆出和婴儿一样的姿势
that would have to try to get in the same positions as a baby
诸如此类的
and things like that.
都是些愚蠢的专题故事
They were pretty stupid feature stories
不过偶尔 我也可以做一些人物报道
but occasionally I could do a sort of personality story,
或者关于大学的报道之类的
or a story about something like a university or something like that
就有机会拍合理一些的照片
where you had a chance to take some reasonable photographs.
你在「展望」待了四年吗
You were four years at Look?
对 大概四年 那时我二十岁左右
Yes, about four years. I was about 20.
这个森林和此时发生的事都不存在于历史之中
This forest then and all that happens now is outside history.
只有永恒的恐惧 怀疑和死亡
Only the unchanging shapes of fear, and doubt and death
来自我们的世界
are from our world.
你所看到的这些士兵
These soldiers that you see
他们说着我们的语言 活在我们的时代
keep our language and our time
但没有祖国 只有自己的内心
but have no other country but the mind.
你的第一部电影可以说是拍了一部家庭电影
You started by making almost a home movie,
在23岁的时候 「恐惧与欲望」 关于巡逻队里的四个人
when you were 23, Fear and Desire, about four men in a patrol.
这部作品的创作背景是什么
What was behind this project?
那是我自己和我认识的一个诗人
That was a very arrogant, flippant script put together by myself,
一起完成的一个非常傲慢 轻率的剧本
and a boy that I knew who was a poet,
那个时候我们都觉得自己是天才
where we thought that we were geniuses,
那部电影的完成度很低
and it was so incompetently done
平淡无奇又极其浮夸
and undramatic, and so pompous.
但我也从中学到了东西
But I learned a lesson from that.
至少它有一些野心 有一些想法在里头
At least it had the ambition of having some ideas in it
我觉得你可以说从这个层面上
and I suppose you could say in that sense
它和我其他的电影还是存在一丝连贯性
there’s some continuity with the rest of my films,
也就是我努力去确保
which I also tried to make sure
片中不只是有空洞的娱乐
that they weren’t just hollow entertainments.
在你的电影中会有一种感觉
You get the feeling from your films,
即真实的世界不只是一个舞台 更是一场战争
that really the world is not only a stage but it’s a war
因为人们一直在战斗
because man is fighting all the time.
一部小说必须要有冲突
Well, in a work of fiction, you have to have conflict.
如果故事里出现没有任何矛盾
If there isn’t a problem in a story,
从定义上来看 这都不能算是个故事
it can almost by definition not be a story.
有多少婚姻是幸福的呢
You know, how many happy marriages are there?
有多少继父爱他们的继子呢
And how many stepfathers love their stepsons?
又有多少继子是爱他们的继父的呢
And how many stepsons love their stepfather?
那些雄心壮志
And how often do people
只关乎金钱的人又会多少次地觉得
who have ambitions which only involve money,
这是一种令人满足的成就呢
do they find it a satisfying accomplishment?
巴里下士
Corporal Barry.
你是一名英勇的战士 出身名门
You are a gallant soldier and have evidently come of good stock.
但是你懒惰 放荡 没有原则
But you’re idle, dissolute and unprincipled.
你对他们造成了很大的伤害
You’ve done a great deal of harm to the men,
尽管你有才华和勇气 我相信你也不会有好下场
and for all your talents and bravery I’m sure you will come to no good.
「巴里林登」讲述了一位爱尔兰冒险者
Barry Lyndon tells of the rise and fall
同时也是一个无赖的沉与浮
of an Irish adventurer and, let’s face it, cad,
他后来成为了士兵 逃兵 赌徒
who becomes a soldier, a deserter, a gambler,
决斗者 最终成为了一个有钱寡妇的丈夫
a duellist and eventually the husband of a very rich widow.
我认为 在观众和人物之间
There is, I think, deliberately a distance
存在一种刻意的距离
between the audience and the characters.
你被要求观看他们的冒险与不幸
You are asked to watch the story of their adventures and misadventures
但不一定要去认同他们
but not necessarily to identify with them.
这是一种危险的尝试 但是很奏效
Well, that’s a dangerous approach but it works.
同样奏效的还有电影悠闲的节奏
What also works is the leisurely pace of the film,
这种节奏和小说节奏相符合
the pace that matches the pace of the novel
而且我敢说也和18世纪的生活相匹配
and I dare say of 18th century life itself.
所以如果你期待的是一个好斗的游侠 还是算了吧
So if you’re expecting an all-action, swashbuckler, forget it.
库布里克呈现出的则是以一种
What Kubrick presents instead is a hard unromantic
严肃不浪漫的视角来见证一位外表英俊
and unsentimental look at the life and times
却命途多舛的投机主义者的生活和时代
of a good-looking but ill-fated opportunist.
有一些人看完电影后会说
Some people get out of the movie and said, you know,
“我们对这个人物没有丝毫同情”
“This character, we have absolutely no sympathy for him.”
好吧 我不知道为什么会对他毫不同情
Well, I can’t see how you can have no sympathy for him.
从另一个方面来说 我们都意识到了这个人物的脆弱性
On the other hand, we’re well aware of the weakness of his character
他出于个人野心而给自己设置的陷阱
and the trap that he places himself in as a result of his ambitions,
以及由于他早期与他人的关系
and the limitation of his personality
引发的其日益增长的愤世嫉俗
that arises from the cynicism which develops
而带来的性格的局限性
from his early relationships with people.
他于是变成了一个很局限的人
He then becomes a very limited person,
他完全不适应这种生活
he is completely unsuited for the life,
不仅体现在社交上 在性情上也是如此
not only socially but temperamentally.
于是他把自己关进一个镀金的笼子里
And so he puts himself into a gilded cage.
从那之后 一切都腐坏了
And from then on everything goes sour.
那你是如何决定让瑞安·奥尼尔来演主角的
But how did you decide on Ryan O’Neal for the main role?
我想不出还有其他任何人了 说实话
Well, I couldn’t think of anybody else, to tell you the truth.
我是说 显然巴里·林登必须是外表迷人的
I mean, obviously, Barry Lyndon has to be physically attractive.
阿尔·帕西诺或者杰克·尼科尔森演不了
He couldn’t be played by Al Pacino or Jack Nicholson.
他也必须要 一开始
He had to also be able to, in the beginning,
看起来很年轻 结尾时又不能还那么年轻
appear to be young and yet not look too young at the end.
那演员呢 你是怎么指导演员的
And the actors, how do you direct actors?
你会和他们进行很多交流吗
Do you speak with them a lot?
你会让他们自己去感受 还是会讲解给他们听?
Or do you let them more feel the text or do you have explanation?
首先 我们会大概讨论一下角色
Well, first of all, you discuss the character in general
然后讨论场景
and then you discuss the scene,
和角色在某个场景里的真实感受
what the character’s real attitude is in the scene.
然后就到了很可怕的环节
Then comes this terrible moment of
就是在你要拍摄的地方
the first time that you actually rehearse a scene
首次实地排练一个场景
in the place you’re going to shoot it.
这从来都是充满意外的 永远和你想得会不一样
It’s always a surprise. It’s never what you thought it would be.
剧本一般都会或多或少地改动
The text usually has to be changed in some way or another.
然后就到了一个很现实又很有意思的阶段
Then they have to get it to a level where it’s realistic and interesting.
而到了这个节点之后 就变得相对轻松一些了
And at that point it then becomes relatively easy.