再现康宁汉（2019）

And he hesitated to correct us
除非他真的被他看到的东西激怒了
unless he just got irritated by what he saw.
我认为他更像是一个艺术家
I think he was much more of an artist
而不是一个老师
rather than a teacher
他会试图要求我们达到那个完美的和理想的标准。
who was going to try to get us to do things up to some perfect and ideal standard.
– 他让我发现我在
– I found I was doing things
做一些我从未梦想过我能完成的事情
that I never dreamed were possible.
世界正在以一种我不理解的方式向我开放
And the world was opening up in a whole way that I hadn’t understood.
与 康宁汉合作的难处在于
The thing that’s so hard about working with Merce
他要求你首先得是你自己
is that he demands that you are first of all yourself
首先是一个人，
as a human being,
然后，从那开始，变成一个舞者。
and from that, a dancer.
要继续吗？
And you move on it?
是的，再来一次，你自己决定
Yes. There again, you can walk up or not.
我自己从来不喜欢那种竞争性的东西，
I myself never liked that competitive thing
但是许多舞蹈在我看来都是这样
that so much of dancing seemed to me to have,
所以我从来没有在我自己的舞蹈里尝试这种东西。
so I never tried to do that in my own situation.
我依然相信每个舞者都是具有某些独特能力的人。
I went on the assumption that each dancer was a person who had certain abilities.
我会尝试让每个舞者自己了解他自己究竟是如何跳舞的，
I would attempt to let each of the dancers find out for himself how he danced,
以及在那种情况下，他是一个什么样的人。
what kind of a person he was in that situation.
这不是政♥治♥，而是跳舞，但和其他地方一样
It’s not politics, it was dancing, but that’s as reasonable a place to do that
这样做很合理
as any other situation.
一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八。
One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight.
在 50 年代初，
In the early ’50s,
我的舞团，可以这么说，开张了。
that point that my company, So to speak, began.
我没有 考虑怎么去组织， 这个舞团才刚刚开始。
I didn’t form it. It just began.
我们只是聚在一起并试图保持着这种状态
We just sort of got together and tried to keep together.
这就是这家舞团的全部。
That’s all there is to it.
突然间，从三人、八人到六十人，我们的舞团就发展起来了，
Suddenly, there’s a company of three people, or eight people, or 60 people,
我认为人数并不重要，这只是个比例的问题。
I don’t think it matters, it’s only in proportion.
但是你必须考虑到所有这些人的方方面面
Then you have to consider all of those people
一个事实是他们是人，
in all the ways. The fact that they are people,
他们得生活，你懂的，
they must somehow get from day to day, you know,
就是要有地方睡觉，有东西吃，以及所有这些。
and have some place to sleep, something to eat, all of that.
这些都必须考虑在内，
And all of that has to be taken into consideration,
还有你现在的实际情况也要考虑进去
as well as the fact that you are now
你现在不仅要为自己编舞，
not only responsible for making a dance for yourself,
还需要对其他舞者负责。
but for these other dancers too.
这就意味着要考虑服装，嘿，
And that implies something about clothing, heh,
我总得让他们穿点什么
covering them up some way,
还有一些关于音乐的东西，但是不管你怎么计划
something about music, however you think of that,
总会有更多计划之外的东西……
and all that gets more…
以因为各种原因而需要更多的资金
involves more funds, one way or another.
但你做到了，不是吗？
But you do it, don’t you?
通过你的运作方法
The way you function?
是， 你要么找到一种运作方法，要么就别干了。
Yes. You find a way to function or you quit.
是的，当然。
Yes, of course.
你在排练的时候做什么？
What do you do during rehearsal?
– 这一切是怎么发生的？ – 我们开始排练的时候，
– How does this all happen? – We rehearse,
我会用秒表对舞蹈的给定部分进行跟踪
and then I will keep track via stopwatch of a given section.
我们曾经做过的一首曲子是“五人组曲”
One of the pieces that we used to do was “Suite for Five,”
我们可以几个月不排练那支舞，
and we could go several months without rehearsing that dance,
然后一旦开始，我们就会彻底投入其中，
and then do it and we would come out within,
哦，每次表演的误差最多10秒。
oh, at the most, 10 seconds difference.
默斯的秒表工作方式，
Merce’s way of working with a stopwatch,
震惊了现代舞界，
which so shocked the modern dance world,
导致该舞团以冷酷、不人道、冷漠、
led to the company’s reputation of being cold, inhuman,
毫无感情的机器人风格而闻名。
impassive, expressionless automatons.
在我看来，在我们的社会中，
It seemed to me that, in the society around us,
出现了很多科学的可能性
there were so many scientific possibilities coming up
一个人不必按照
that one did not have to think
一件事接着另一件事的次序来思考，
in terms of one thing following another,but, say, in a field.
我开始考虑运用可能性创作舞蹈。
And I began to make dances with those possibilities in mind.
可以说，作曲的方法就是
So to speak,
compositional method
利用偶然的机会或随机方法。
was by using chance, or random means.
如果我不喜欢这个随机程序的结果，
If I don’t like what comes up
with the chance procedures,
我接着就要放弃它吗？
do I then throw it away?
换句话说，我要不要让我的个人品味介入其中？
In other words, do I let my taste enter this thing?
呃，我不会。
And I, uh, don’t.
我会继续尝试。
I try it out.
我们的观众是艺术家。
Our audiences were artists.
美国伟大的画家，
The great American painters,
他们刚刚变得众所周知。
they were just becoming well-known.
他们仍然很穷。
They were still poor.
好吧，似乎真正接受我的作品的人是舞者和音乐家，
Well, the people who really seemed to accept my work were dancers and musicians,
而我几乎被其他所有人视为小丑。
while I was considered a clown by nearly everyone else.
而且，呃，我发现，这些画家关于艺术是什么的想法
And, uh, I found a lot more rapport with, uh, their ideas
比我原先所想的更和谐
about what, uh, art was than I did with a lot of painters.
于是我们立刻成为了朋友。
We became friends immediately.
我们不用说话就能理解对方的感受。
We understood, without speaking, how the other one felt.
这几乎是一种认同感。
Almost a sense of identity.
鲍布·劳森伯格曾经说，
Bob Rauschenberg described it once,
我和他只有两个共同点，
he said we have only two things in common,
我们的想法和我们的贫穷， 哈哈哈。
our ideas and our poverty. Ha-ha-ha.
我认为这是一个了不起的描述。
I thought that was a marvelous description.
它让我们走到了一起。
And it brought us together.
默斯并不是那种容易合作的人。
Merce is not the easiest person to work with
首先，他讨厌布景。
in the first place. He hates sets.
他讨厌服装。
He hates costumes.
所以，你必须在他甚至没有注意到的情况下解决这些问题
So I mean, you really have to work around without his even noticing.
有一次我说：“鲍勃，在其中一个舞蹈中，我想背着一把椅子”
I said, “Bob, I want to wear a chair on my back”
他看着我，
in one of the dances. He looked at me,
几分钟后他说：
and then a few minutes later he said:
“如果你有椅子的话，那可以给我来一扇门吗？”
“If you have a chair, can I have a door?”
我说，“当然。为什么不呢？”
And I said, “Certainly. Why not?”
我们合作中最棒的就是
One of the most amazing things about our collaboration
那种全权委托的信任，
was sort of a carte-blanche trust,
那里没有人是真正负责的，
where nobody is really responsible,
但作为一个团队，没有人感到自己是无关紧要的
but as a group of people, are not irresponsible.
我认为这创造了一种关于美好社会之可能性的感觉。
And I think that creates a kind of a wonderful feeling about the possibilities of society.
我不知道会发生什么，直到它第一次出现在表演中
I don’t know what will happen until it’s put, let’s say, in the first performance.
我宁愿冒险，可以这么说，
I prefer to risk, so to speak, to chance that,
去冒险，看看这种组合，
that this combination of things,
能不能产生一些我不知道的东西。
some of which I don’t know about, may produce something else.
我曾经非常嫉妒约翰，
I used to be so jealous of John
因为约翰做任何事都不会出错，
because John couldn’t do anything wrong,
可是制♥作♥服装和布景不一样…
but making costumes and sets…
因为我一直在和道具打交道，
I was always in the furniture business,
你可能会被布景或服装绊倒。
and you can trip overeither the set or the costumes.
但你不会在一张纸条上绊倒。
But you can’t trip on a note.
那么，在“夏日空间”中
Well, in “Summerspace,”
我想表达的是舞蹈没有任何中心。
all I said was that the dance didn’t have any center.
– 我明白你的意思。
– I – knew what you meant.
在舞台侧方也会有同样多的舞蹈。
There was gonna be just as much dancing in the wings.
所以我设计了一种伪装。
So I planned a kind of a camouflage.
这样的话，如果有人犹豫，
So if anybody hesitated,
他们就会迷失在背景之中。
they were lost in the background.
我们今天在“夏日空间”上工作。
We worked on “Summerspace” today.
对“夏日空间”来说，
In Summerspace,
主要的动力是对于
the principal momentum was the concern
那些带领人们穿越空间的步伐的关注
for steps that carry one through space.
就像鸟儿在地上停留片刻，然后继续飞行，
Like the passage of birds stopping for moments on the ground, and then going on,
或者像当汽车穿过公路时
or automobiles throbbing along turnpikes
路边的叶子上下跳动的感觉
and under and over clover leaves.
这出舞蹈有大量的旋转动作，
The dance came out to have a great deal of turning in it,
这在一开始让舞者感到不安。
which was upsetting to the dancers.
“我不能转。”
“I can’t turn.”
“你怎么转？”
“How do you turn?”
唯一的办法就是去做。
The only way to do it is to do it.
每天教完课我就继续练舞，